real or psychosematic

[RevSmoke]

Knew that title would get your attention.

It is a variation of the age old question - Cuban cigars -vs- non-Cuban cigars. Now, there are certain cigars that are special releases (CCs & NCs), please do not those factor into this discussion. I want this to be about cigars that might fit into the regular rotation of most people here. We're talking the everyday cigars. And yes, that may vary greatly from individual to individual based on financial ability, but let's not make this about the limited editions and special releases.

Also, it would be nice if the entire post were read before commenting, as I'd like to get some honest self-introspection (I personally have done some of that).

Here's the background.

There are some who will not smoke an "NC," considering them inferior in every regard. This is not a question about whether Cuban cigars are that much better. Please read on...

For example, the filet mignon is indeed the most tender cut of beef, and is supposed to be the best steak. Indeed, I have had tenderloins that melt in my mouth, I have chewed them with my tongue. But I personally prefer a ribeye - the marbling gives more flavor to it, and while I may never be able to chew one entirely with my tongue, those flavors win 99% of the time.

Now, movng on to the meat of my thinking. I have smoked cigars since 1980, so I have had a few. While I may never have smoked as many as some do on a daily basis, I think I can safely say that I've been around the block once or twice. I have smoked some Cubans from the 70s through the present. Lately, due to some sales and some gifts, I have smoked more than I have previously. I had to seriously consider a few Cubans as part of my blind tasting for a few issues of SMOKE - this was a great experience because I went into each cigar without any presuppositions - this can truly be humbling and eye-opening. And with the sales this last year, I have enjoyed a few more CCs recently.

Through it all, I can confidently say that I have had excellent Cubans, Nicaraguans, Dominicans, and Hondurans (not a big fan of Jamaican, Mexican, Philippine blended cigars though).

As I have watched a number of conversations on a couple different cigar boards, there are a few who are adamant that only Cuban cigars be their choice, I even read someone saying, "I'd rather smoke a mixed filler, machine rolled Cuban than a Padron Anniversario - they are that much better."

I am going to qualify this here - so that there are no accusations intended. In my own experience, I have come to a few conclusions.

Yes, there are different flavors in all cigars. Yes, Cubans have some rather distinctive flavors. But, from my experience, not all Cubans have the same distinctive flavors. Some people claim that Cubans are smoother (rather than harsh) than non-Cubans - I haven't always found that to be true.

This brings up the first simple question in 2 parts:
1a) In your experience, is there one distinctive flavor/aroma characteristic that is solely found in Cuban cigars?
1b) Have you found it present in ALL Cuban cigars?
1c) If you have found them so, describe the "smooth" characteristic that is present (according to your experience) in Cubans -vs- Non.

From my experience then, I have found that there are distinctive flavor and aroma profiles in every single cigar I have smoked. I have some CC and NC sticks in my humidor. I have found that I grab a stick according to what flavor/aroma profile is beckoning to me. There may be other factors that affect that appeal; what I'm doing, what I am eating and/or drinking, who I am with, etc. Although I could grab CCs only till they are gone, I don't. In fact, I don't necessarily want to. They do not always figure into my appeal factor.

This has caused me to ponder whether Cubans are really so much better than other cigars. And my personal taste conclusion is that to my palate, they are not necessarily better, but different. And, it is the difference in all of them that makes certain cigars appeal at certain times.

This brings me to the heart of the matter and my most pressing question(s). (and don't answer for others, this is to be introspective)

2) Is the difference (as may have been noted in question 1) that significant, that Cubans are so much better? Or, is it more of a personal taste issue - where someone prefers the "distinctiveness" of a Cuban so much, that they don't "want" to smoke anything else? (like why I'll take a Ribeye over a Filet Mignon almost every time)

By the way, I have local guy who smokes only Philly Blunts - I have given him different cigars, and now he won't take them when I offer them. He said, "Sorry, no offense, but your cigars taste like crap!" To top it off, the last cigar I had given him was a Punch Corona '98.

Thanks for playing along.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[Emjaysmash]

Hey todd
TO answer your first question, in my opinion ( and somewhat limited experience) Most of the CC's iv'e msoked had some amount of Tannin in them, which i dont find in NC's. This tips me off on an unbanded cigar as to whether or not it is a CC. Otherwise, I cant say i can tell a definitive cuban flavor.

2) it is imho a personal taste issue. I mean that guy who smokes Phillie blunts is a perfect example.

just my 2 cents.

[MajorCaptSilly]

Great post.

I feel Cubans have that "tang" taste that is hard to explain. The smoke seems richer and the strength seems "smoother". It doesn't give you that irratation in the back of your throat.

I haven't found the "woodsy" not cedary but woodsy taste in any of the Cubans I've had so far. I love that woodsy taste and tend to find it in stronger Dominicans and Hondurans. I aslo get more of the leathery/chocolate flavor I like from a good Nicaraguan.

To sum it up, I fell in love with Cubans at first and thought they would be the only smoke for me then went back to my favorite NCs for those familiar flavors I love. They both have a place for me but I don't find any of them superior, just different.

MCS

[TanithT]

I do in fact like the "typical" CC profile very, very much. This isn't to say that other cigars with similar profiles cannot be equally good, or contain many of the same flavors that appeal to me in an elegant, well constructed structure.

I happen to like "Havana Horsesh*t", and specifically I like it when paired with coffee and cream, some Spanish leather, a touch of nuttiness or woodsiness and perhaps a bit of cedar. There are NC's that fit this profile, but almost all CC's fit this profile to some extent and have at least some of the specific flavors that I like very much.

That's pretty much all it is for me, really. I've enjoyed many NC's as much or more than any particular CC, but in general even a middling-to-inferior CC is likely to deliver a pleasurable experience to some extent for me because I just plain like the terroir.

[icehog3]

REv, I am very careful about questions which state or imply "always" and/or "never".

I will say that I am primarily a "nose smoker", and find Cubans are much more enjoyable in general for this kind of smoking, as many of the Central and South American tobacco seems a bit harsh through the nose.

No doubt there are some wonderful Nicaraguan, Dominican, American, etc cigars. I just prefer Cubans for my tastes. If the nose smoking part implies more "smoothness", then I guess there is my answer.

[larryinlc]

There are so many variables that come into play while smoking a cigar. Most notably mindset. Cigars almost always smoke and taste better when I'm in a mellow happy mood. That being said, in my 30 years of smoking, I do recognize the cc profile and I like it. However, it's not always present. I agree with the original op assessment....not better, but different.

Larry

[shilala]

I'm a nose smoker like Tom, and I enjoy Nicaraguans, DOminicans and Hondurans for just the opposite reason. The spice. I love it.
Now, back to the steak disscussion...
I find filets tender, but far less flavorful than a Del Monico (same cut as Prime Rib, they call it different things in different places).
It's the fullness of flavor that grabs me.
With cc's, they remind me of nursing home food. No Salt, no spices, no flavors.
There's something there, but there's an empty spot where the body should be.
When I say "body", I mean that flavor that fills your mouth.
I have yet to find a cc with any body. If there is any at all, it's bitterness, and I hate bitter.
So to answer 1a, b, and c, I have found specific sweetness in cc's that I haven't found anywhere else that is exactly the same. I can only get it in the nose.
But the body is always either completely vacant, bitter, or tastes like wet ashtray.

Add to that inferior construction, half-assed crafstmanship, and plugged smokes, and I just don't buy many because I find them a far inferior value, and I like so many other cigars so much more.

That said, I have smoked four or five cc's that were fabulous.
Even those lacked the "body" that I so much enjoy. I do think I'll find that body in Cuaba. I've only ever had one, and I loved it. It was a little divinos.
I have a big one here that I'm looking forward to trying, and I'm hoping it delivers what I like.

Todd, I think your steak analogy was an excellent representation of "the difference". I wouldn't walk across the street for a New York Strip. Just don't like the cut. No "body". A ribeye or del monico, and I'm a happy guy.

I think that I'm unable to enjoy the milder floral candy sweetness of cc's because I've destroyed my senses with a can or two of snuff a day for the last 30 years.
But every now and again, I still get a hankering for that cotton candy nose sweetness that some new cc's deliver. I can enjoy about half the cigar till it tastes like ashtray and I chuck them.
I've always thought that if I could just get some fresh cc's, take care of them the way I take care of my other fresh nc's, I'd find the body, figuring it's lost with age.
I've tried that and it isn't true. It just isn't there to the extent or flavor I enjoy.
CC's hang on to that tannin bitterness for years. It's just there. And I don't like it.
I don't even eat sour candy. It's just a flavor I don't care for, and no matter how many times I try, I can't get used to it.
I'm hoping I don't find those same qualities in Cuaba, because it's the last cc brand that I haven't explored thoroughly. It's on the drawing board though.

All that said...
It real easy for me to see why so many guys like cc's.
To me, they're like drinking Coors Lite with a coffee stirrer straw, with a cigarette butt and sour gummi worm floating in the can.

[Ashcan Bill]

As far as the first question, no, I don’t find any one flavor predominant throughout all the Cuban marcas. I find most to have unique characteristics, and that’s why I enjoy some and dislike others. Same goes for NCs. The one commonality I see across the board with Cuban cigars is the lack of harshness compared to NCs, especially on the nose exhale. The tobacco is just mellower.

As far as the second question, are they better? Personally, I usually prefer a CC over a NC. The CC is a bit more sophisticated in that I can identify and enjoy flavors I don’t generally get in NCs. Now this isn’t a 100% deal, as I’ve had plenty of flat CCs. And there are NCs that I inventory and smoke often enough, and I quite enjoy them. But overall, I prefer the CC for its lack of harshness and flavor profile.

The downside is the construction of CCs. I don’t know why so many are twisted, tightly bunched, or just plain plugged but they are. Conversely, it’s exceedingly rare to get a NC too tight to draw. That’s the real mystery to me.

[Footbag]

I've been smoking for 12 years now, and primarily started with NC's. My preferred brands for a long time were Fuente and Padron, probably because they were the only ones I was familiar with. About two years ago, I found ClubStogie and it opened up a whole new world for me. I found that I liked the DPG spice and really started experimenting

More recently, I've moved on to CC's and definitely prefer them. I do seem to find a common flavor that Cubans posses that I typically won't detect in non-Cubans, and I assume it to be the "twang". Then again, sometimes I question whether we are all talking about the same twang.

To describe it, I would say it somewhere between peat and wet hay. It's like a musty sweetness. Not as unpleasant as I'm sure it sounds and I'm not saying it's my favorite flavor in Cubans or even the flavor I'm searching for, but it's what I identify as the twang.

All that said, I'm smoking a lot of Partagas these days, and the twang is not as prevalent as other smokes. What it does have is a very exotic spiciness that I have not found in any other brand. If I could, I'd be smoking Party's all day long.

One other thing I find, is that when I smoke non-cubans that have a grassy profile(Zino's for me)I don't like them as much as Cubans that have the grassy profile. The NC's may just taste too green, while if I'm smoking a Cohiba Robusto, I detect grass, but a very pleasant grass. You may notice that If I use the term grassiness in a review, I will always use the term "pleasant" or "unpleasant" because there seems to be grass I like and grass I don't like.

All that said, like Tom and Scott, I'm a nose smoker and the ability to nose exhale 30-50% of the smoke rather then my typical 10% makes them a much more flavorful smoke or at least I pull more flavors out of them. Plus, it just makes smoking them a bit more relaxing.

And great idea for a post.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by MajorCaptSilly

Great post.
I love that woodsy taste and tend to find it in stronger Dominicans and Hondurans.

MCS

Opus is Dominican. It's nothing but wood, and you don't like them.
I think you need an old one. When they are new, they are all spicy and citrus flavored. They suck, bad.
After a few years, they taste like Dominican wood. I bet you'd love one with five or six years on it.
I still don't like them, even when they are old, but they are a 100% completely different cigar with a few years on them. Not even remotely the same. I'd go so far to say that in a blind test, not a single person would think they were the same cigar.

[jjirons69]

I agree with Tom about nasal smoking. CCs tend to give a smoother, more floral nasal taste. The smoke is easier to roll. Of the NCs, I tend to like Nics best and like MCS said, they're more chocolate/leather/wood and tend to be fuller and a bit harsher on average. They're a little harder to handle with nasal smoking. They are lots more problems with CCs becoming plugged. NCs tend to like to unravel a little more. CCs like lower RH for storage and NCs can handle the higher range. Shilala was correct about the spice. NCs tend to have more blends with lots more spice. A spicy CCs is the exception.

[RevSmoke]

That's what I like, putting a finger on why someone enjoys one thing over another... This isn't saying they are better or worse, just what someone prefers and why.

This is most helpful.

Thanks for participating.

[The Poet]

I will start off with 2 confessions. Imprimis, I have smoked a lot, a lot, A LOT of NC cigars, and only a handful of CC ones. Some of the NCs have not been to my personal taste, which is a good reason to smoke them - to find out what you like. I did so, and am not pretty much a Villazon wh@#&, meaning I feel confident I will enjoy nearly every Hondouran from that factory, especially the maduros. They have a sweetness and fullness that suits my palate, without that smash-mouth pepper of many Nicaraguans or the light nutty "is this dang thing even lit?" mildness of Dominicians. Secundus, I've smoked only a double-handfull of CCs, all gifts from BOTLs (hint, hint), but of several top-notch brands, so my experience is broader than it is deep. As for the CCs, they seem to have a deceptive mildness to start, one that is still tasty as opposed to bland, but the smoke seems to develop to a greater complexity about 1/2-way without getting that hot and dirty bite as often, or as badly, as some NCs. Were they better? Maybe, maybe not. The only true "difference" I've noticed is the higher lithium content in CC tobacco (due to soil conditions), which does not affect the taste, but does alter my mood more than NCs. A good thing? Sometimes, but I did have one "bad trip" after a CC, when my haid was all #^@&ed up for three days afterwards.

Were the price, and the ease of acquisition, of CCs the same as NCs, my rotation would feature both prominently. Hey, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. As this is NOT the case, I'd be happy to stick with devil I know forever, and smoke my Villazons.

Bottom line, as the Reverend's friend illustrates with his beloved Phillies, you should smoke what you like, and like what you smoke. And never, never let some cigar snob tell you you're an @$$.

[bobarian]

I smoke predominantly CC's and am mostly a nose smoker as well. When nose exhaling CC's I notice a floral and "hay" like flavors that I dont find as often with NC's. Another flavor that I seldom find in NC's is the vanilla, caramel toffee flavors that I find in the Por Larranaga line. I also find most CC's are more complex with layers of flavors coming simultaneously. What I miss in CC's is the kick or punch that comes in some LFD's, Camachos or other full bodied blends.

[hotreds]

Vely intelesting! Keeping in mind that taste is taste, and one cannot argue with it, I'd say that over all I prefer the cc variety. I have found these to, in fact, be smoother, and less likely to give me an unpleasant buzz. Seems like their goal in life is not to make a cigar so strong it'll make you barf after one puff- one keeps reading about boasting about double, triple, and who knows how high the nc ligero content will go.

On the other hand, some of my favorite cigars are ncs. A few I've given "As" to are considered "yard gars."

You also run into the "cigar snobs" that look down upon anything that isn't an aged cc LE.

So, to answer your question- it's real all right- just as and because "taste is taste."

As has been stated by many more expert than me: "Smoke what you like and like what you smoke!" Snobbery be damned!(Pardon the expression, Reverend!)

[TanithT]

Well here's a classic example. Inspired by this thread, I went a lit up a Belinda, a cheap Cuban machine made. Unwrapped, it smelled *delicious*, that classic "Havana horseshit" aroma that (I think) is reminiscent of roasted coffee, toasted hazelnuts and barnyard earth. On lighting, the same aroma/taste came through.

Smoking it down, I could certainly tell that this was not a premium cigar. There was no real subtlety or structure to it at all, and it was pretty one-dimensional. But that one dimension is one I very much enjoy, not because it has any snob value (a machine made cigar is pretty limited on the snob value, to be sure), but because it is a flavor I like a whole lot.

I'd reach for a machine made CC over an NC, if I was in the mood for that particular flavor. Even the ones that aren't complex or well structured are still nice tasty snack cigars with a flavor I happen to enjoy. Assuming I can get them to draw, mutter, grumble. That's one thing about CC's that drives me up the wall.

All things being equal I'd rather smoke a premium CC, but there are NC cigars that are amazingly well made with plenty of depth, complexity, elegance and structure that are a very enjoyable smoke. The CC flavor profile happens to be my favorite, but that doesn't mean I disdain other tasty sticks with different flavor profiles.

I would not claim that a cheap Cuban was a "better cigar" than a good NC. For that matter, even the expensive Cubans are very often worse cigars than the halfway decent NC's. However the Cuban may be more enjoyable to my personal palate because I just plain like that flavor.

[shilala]

I think the respect everyone has shown for one another's taste in cigars in this is exceptional and very refreshing. It's just makes it that much clearer that we're blessed with some of the best brothers and sisters on the planet.
That said, Sofaman and I smoked five cigars tonight. Three were homegrown handmades from Richard (tzaddi).
We smoked one cc among the five. It was plugged, unraveled, and fell apart. It was from 2000, a little Sancho Panza pc.
It tasted great, so at least there's that.
We had a blast, too.

[icehog3]

Smoke what you like, like what you smoke.

[RevSmoke]

Originally Posted by icehog3

Smoke what you like, like what you smoke.

That about summarizes the purpose of this thread.

[Ahbroody]

Originally Posted by icehog3

Smoke what you like, like what you smoke.

That said do cubans have a unique flavor profile. for the most part I would say yes.

I also have to agree with scott that I often find the meat is missing in a CC. Not to say thats always bad. In fact many times for me personally I want something lighter and more subtle. Last night I smoked an HDM epi2, followed by the new illusione empernay. Both were excellent to me. I focused much more on the subtle aspects of the epi2. The Empernay was much more POW. To smoke them in reverse order would not have worked because of how intense the illusione was.

I was smoking a lot more CC than NC, but it is evening up a lot more. I am really enjoying a lot of the NCs lately from Pepin, Padilla, Johnson, and illusione. I will say I find it strange that people swear off an entire region of sticks without trying it. I think the NC area has really improved a lot of the past years.

I have had a few cohiba maduros now and I can say for some reason I prefer the cheap nc sancho maduros. Thats why the smoke what you like phrase is so valid. For my taste preference I would be wasting money smoking the cohiba when I can buy a boat load of sanchos for the same price. Then again half of the flavors I hear mentioned on the board I have never experienced.