Advice for B&M owners anyone?

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by Kreth

Don't slam brands you don't carry.
Posted via Mobile Device

I would have to agree!!

Originally Posted by Miket156

I "thought" that anyone that would be interested in purchasing a cigar would not be a thief too.

Never met a lawyer, huh?

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by Bad Finger

Never met a lawyer, huh?

1. Don't disrespect me because of my age. Yes, I look young, but after 4 kids and 3 wives...I need a stogie.

2. When I ask about a top 25 NC stick, don't look at me like I'm the crazy one if you don't have it. "HUH? Whats a Liga Privada? Who makes it? Is it a generic?" LOL

Yeah Rich's in Portland....I'm looking at you! You've been promising to get me a box for over a year.

3. (Already been mentioned) When I come into your store wearing a sweatshirt, don't expect me to be looking for the dog rockets. Last time this happened, I ended up buying $200 in sticks.

4. When I ask if you have the new thing I'm looking for, and you tell me "yes we do, but they are in the back and I haven't priced them yet", prepare for me to call you a lazy bastard.

5. Get off your damn computer and interact with your customers. Yeah, forums are fun...but customers bring you money. Save the forum updates for after work please.

6. Don't mark your sticks up with more than a 70% profit margin, and I'll be willing to bet that your "theft problem" might go down some. Ever bought a stogie on the strip in Vegas? Talk about price fixing!

[awsmith4]

Originally Posted by Bad Finger

6. Don't mark your sticks up with more than a 70% profit margin, and I'll be willing to bet that your "theft problem" might go down some. Ever bought a stogie on the strip in Vegas? Talk about price fixing!

Just out of curiosity how do you know what there profit margin is and how does that make theft justified???

Originally Posted by awsmith4

Just out of curiosity how do you know what there profit margin is and how does that make theft justified???

I'm not justifying ANYTHING. But when you've gone to conventions, know what wholesale is, and then see those sticks in certain stores for 25% more than your regular B&M's, yeah..something is up and it stinks.


$40 45th Padrons

$20 Nostrosos

$25 Camacho Triple Maduros


These are why I don't go into certain stores. When something is above MSRP, who is the real thief in that equation?

[awsmith4]

Originally Posted by Bad Finger

I'm not justifying ANYTHING. But when you've gone to conventions, know what wholesale is, and then see those sticks in certain stores for 25% more than your regular B&M's, yeah..something is up and it stinks.


$40 45th Padrons

$20 Nostrosos

$25 Camacho Triple Maduros


These are why I don't go into certain stores. When something is above MSRP, who is the real thief in that equation?

Often times cigars in event areas are bought from a retail outlet not a wholesaler or a manufacturer. Every time a cigar changes hands (as well as many other products) it often needs to be doubled to make a margin that is profitable. Without profit there is no point in business. If the market will bear a $40 Padron then that is not gouging, that is providing for your customer base. Cigars are not a necessity so no one is forced to pay high prices. The only way a person would be a thief is if they misrepresented what they were selling. If they have a cigar clearly priced and a customer is willing to buy that cigar at that price then that is the free market at work. If the seller was peddling fakes or rebanding lower grade cigars then that would constituent thievery.

With that said it does trouble me to go to a local shop that has higher prices than their competitors, know that they get them from the same source, and then hear them complain that no one is buying and the other guys are undercutting them. If your competition is pricing lower maybe you need to as well. Yes, you may not make the same margin per cigar but a low margin is better than no margin from lack of sales.

Originally Posted by awsmith4

Often times cigars in event areas are bought from a retail outlet not a wholesaler or a manufacturer. Every time a cigar changes hands (as well as many other products) it often needs to be doubled to make a margin that is profitable. Without profit there is no point in business. If the market will bear a $40 Padron then that is not gouging, that is providing for your customer base. Cigars are not a necessity so no one is forced to pay high prices. The only way a person would be a thief is if they misrepresented what they were selling. If they have a cigar clearly priced and a customer is willing to buy that cigar at that price then that is the free market at work. If the seller was peddling fakes or rebanding lower grade cigars then that would constituent thievery.

With that said it does trouble me to go to a local shop that has higher prices than their competitors, know that they get them from the same source, and then hear them complain that no one is buying and the other guys are undercutting them. If your competition is pricing lower maybe you need to as well. Yes, you may not make the same margin per cigar but a low margin is better than no margin from lack of sales.

Oh, I completely understand what you are saying, and completely agree. I don't steal, and would never justify it, I just thought I might throw out a reason I could see someone justifying it over.

I simply just don't offer gougers my money.

[awsmith4]

Originally Posted by Bad Finger

Oh, I completely understand what you are saying, and completely agree. I don't steal, and would never justify it, I just thought I might throw out a reason I could see someone justifying it over.

I simply just don't offer gougers my money.

The term 'gouger' is what I don't understand. If that person paid retail for there product and needs to sell them to make a profit then they have to sell above MSRP. If that person paid wholesale for the product and needs to sell above MSRP to make a profit then that is there choice and we have the choice not to by. But let's say that person's overhead is such that they have to charge more, even double. That is not gouging, that is running a profitable business.

I understand that you don't want to overpay, but here is another example: I can go to Total Wine, a very large chain, and buy a 6 pack of Dogfish Head 60min IPA for $8. The same beer may be at a smaller store for $10. Total Wine buys, and sells, much more product than the small store. Their profit margins do not need to be as high because they have large sales volume. The small store needs to have a bigger margin because they have to make more per beer because of low sales volume. I know everyone gets that concept so we'll move to restaurants. Now, I can pay $8-10 for a 6 pack but then I go to a bar/restaurant and they want me to pay $4-8 for 1 beer. Is that gouging? No. They are providing a product that is convenient and desirable at a price they can make money on. A small cigar vendor in an event type atmosphere is doing the same, they are providing a desirable product at a price people are willing to pay. Chances are they do not do the volume of sales as a regular cigar store, and as I stated above, they may have had to buy there stock at a higher price. Value is not MSRP, it is not set by the manufacture, value is what someone is willing to pay.

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by awsmith4

The term 'gouger' is what I don't understand. If that person paid retail for there product and needs to sell them to make a profit then they have to sell above MSRP. If that person paid wholesale for the product and needs to sell above MSRP to make a profit then that is there choice and we have the choice not to by. But let's say that person's overhead is such that they have to charge more, even double. That is not gouging, that is running a profitable business.

I understand that you don't want to overpay, but here is another example: I can go to Total Wine, a very large chain, and buy a 6 pack of Dogfish Head 60min IPA for $8. The same beer may be at a smaller store for $10. Total Wine buys, and sells, much more product than the small store. Their profit margins do not need to be as high because they have large sales volume. The small store needs to have a bigger margin because they have to make more per beer because of low sales volume. I know everyone gets that concept so we'll move to restaurants. Now, I can pay $8-10 for a 6 pack but then I go to a bar/restaurant and they want me to pay $4-8 for 1 beer. Is that gouging? No. They are providing a product that is convenient and desirable at a price they can make money on. A small cigar vendor in an event type atmosphere is doing the same, they are providing a desirable product at a price people are willing to pay. Chances are they do not do the volume of sales as a regular cigar store, and as I stated above, they may have had to buy there stock at a higher price. Value is not MSRP, it is not set by the manufacture, value is what someone is willing to pay.

Vary well put Albert!!!

[JaKaacH]

Originally Posted by awsmith4

The term 'gouger' is what I don't understand. If that person paid retail for there product and needs to sell them to make a profit then they have to sell above MSRP. If that person paid wholesale for the product and needs to sell above MSRP to make a profit then that is there choice and we have the choice not to by. But let's say that person's overhead is such that they have to charge more, even double. That is not gouging, that is running a profitable business.

I understand that you don't want to overpay, but here is another example: I can go to Total Wine, a very large chain, and buy a 6 pack of Dogfish Head 60min IPA for $8. The same beer may be at a smaller store for $10. Total Wine buys, and sells, much more product than the small store. Their profit margins do not need to be as high because they have large sales volume. The small store needs to have a bigger margin because they have to make more per beer because of low sales volume. I know everyone gets that concept so we'll move to restaurants. Now, I can pay $8-10 for a 6 pack but then I go to a bar/restaurant and they want me to pay $4-8 for 1 beer. Is that gouging? No. They are providing a product that is convenient and desirable at a price they can make money on. A small cigar vendor in an event type atmosphere is doing the same, they are providing a desirable product at a price people are willing to pay. Chances are they do not do the volume of sales as a regular cigar store, and as I stated above, they may have had to buy there stock at a higher price. Value is not MSRP, it is not set by the manufacture, value is what someone is willing to pay.

Good one Albert. I hate the over use of the gouger term too! If you don't like the price move on, if you make a offer and the sellers says no move on.

Yep, and these same retailers will tell you "our prices are higher than the internet because the online guys don't have to pay for a store!". BS

They pay employees, overhead, warehousing, shipping, and electricity like anyone else.

Also, the practice of B&M's telling customers not to purchase online because the "feds will come after you for taxes" is just about as low as it gets.



If a retailer is paying more than MSRP for a specific product, rather than finding a dealer for their customers who offer said product at the MSRP, I would say they are ripping their customers off.

If they wanted to save the customers business, they would say "I can get them for you, but they are way above MSRP due to demand", and offer either another source, or possibly buy them from the retailer, add on $10 and make the profit on the customers subsequent purchases.

Simply sticking on a sticker price that is $10-15 higher per stick than the guy down the road is a quick way to be labeled a cheat or scammer. Thats an extra $200-400 a box.

Depending on where you live, the typical cigar retailer is at a disadvantage when compared to Internet stores. Where I live (Pennsylvania) we have archaic laws and the state isn't afraid to charge gratuitous license fees for anybody that is in the "sin" business (smoking, drinking, sex). Cigar retailers may also be hit with an additional city tax for same. Retailers also have a smaller market to serve.

Internet dealers that have a user friendly website and fair prices can sell anywhere in the US, so they have a larger customer base. Internet stores don't have to pay all those license fees for allowing smoking in a public place. They can operate out of a warehouse and not have to work a retail establishment with wall to wall, leather chairs, expensive glass front humidor cases, etc.

Small cigar retailers don't survive where I live.



Mike T.

[awsmith4]

Originally Posted by Bad Finger

Yep, and these same retailers will tell you "our prices are higher than the internet because the online guys don't have to pay for a store!". BS - True

They pay employees, overhead, warehousing, shipping, and electricity like anyone else. - True

Also, the practice of B&M's telling customers not to purchase online because the "feds will come after you for taxes" is just about as low as it gets. - The main reason a online cigar is cheaper is because of the lack of having to charge state tax. True the feds will not come after you, but the state might. It has happened in New Jersey, and if I can find a link to the thread I will post it. As for what the state tax is here is the link http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16845



If a retailer is paying more than MSRP for a specific product, rather than finding a dealer for their customers who offer said product at the MSRP, I would say they are ripping their customers off.

If they wanted to save the customers business, they would say "I can get them for you, but they are way above MSRP due to demand", and offer either another source, or possibly buy them from the retailer, add on $10 and make the profit on the customers subsequent purchases.

Simply sticking on a sticker price that is $10-15 higher per stick than the guy down the road is a quick way to be labeled a cheat or scammer. Thats an extra $200-400 a box. - That is not scamming, gouging, cheating, etc. that is just dumb business and will be corrected by the free market. People eventually will not pay higher than the competition and if they do its their own fault

My replies are in red, and I will find the thread that has the letter where the state demanding payment.

[replicant_argent]

Originally Posted by Bad Finger

4. When I ask if you have the new thing I'm looking for, and you tell me "yes we do, but they are in the back and I haven't priced them yet", prepare for me to call you a lazy bastard.

Really?



No... I gotta ask, are you serious on this one?

One of the things that I don't like is some Internet cigar resellers won't accept my UPS account number for shipping. I can use our company's UPS account# if I ask and I don't have to pay shipping at all. Some of them say their "system is automated" and they can't use another account number. That's baloney. Worse, one company told me that it was against their policy to use another UPS account#. So, its against MY policy to buy cigars from poor business people.

Anyone that is in business can get the UPS World Wide software from free from UPS and a label printer and labels for DIRT CHEAP! its cheaper and more efficient that using the UPS website and your laser printer or your own label machine. I know this for sure because we use to do it the old way and several months again we switched to the UPS software and label printer and my life is so much easier. I can crank out the packages now! Also, I can use anyone else's UPS account provided I have all the correct information, which the owner of the account would have to give me.

Some companies that insist on doing the shipping over-charge for that service, and I find it annoying. It's so bush league. I won't buy from them.

Rant over,



Mike T.

You are correct in your replies guys, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You're right, the free market will take care of the issue at hand. Being labeled a scammer doesn't mean you ARE a scammer, just that people view you that way. Once that happens, you might as well board up the windows because its all down hill from there. Even if you have awesome prices, if you seem 'shifty' as a proprietor, you are probably not going to be around for very long.

To those who complain about state taxes. Move. Sorry fellas, I had to move out of state to gain lawful compliance in the industry I'm in, coming from Idaho. As I was told before my move, "if you don't like the laws in your state, get out.". I did. The rules that are setup by your local legislature can and do get changed through action and BOTL's running for local office, not charging more at the register.


There is a reason that Best Buy, Target, and Walmart all take a hit on the hot items during the xmas season. They realize that they could charge more for an Xbox, but they lose money on those purchases to attract more customers into their store, and make the profit margin up on cheaper products.

Just like the restaurant business, where most kitchens lose money due to food costs, and make it up on alcohol sales. If you can't compete with everyone else in town, that is nobody's fault but your own when it comes to running a small business.

If you don't like taxes, there are a number of way to start a Cigar Union, Association, or other 501(c)3 non-profit to get around that, and possibly get around local laws limiting smoking areas in public.

I guess it comes down to this for me. When I walk into a cigar shop, I expect to be talking to a tobacconist who does it for the passion of the leaf, not a guy trying to make a quick buck.

Where there is a will, there's a way.

Originally Posted by replicant_argent

Really?



No... I gotta ask, are you serious on this one?

Nope. Paul's Cigar Shop on Beaverton-Hillsdale HWY.

Asked about Warlock (by omar ortez), and the older salesman told me "yep, we just had some dropped off in the back for promo, but i haven't inventoried them yet".

I laughed all the way out the door.

[Adriftpanda]

Maybe he was busy?

[awsmith4]

So are you now saying that a local cigar shop should keep prices in line with a online store and if they can't they should move out of state to avoid the taxes but continue to stay in state and provide cigars and a place for you to smoke?

Seems impossible...