Car buying possibly gone wrong?

[G G]

I am not sure if we have anyone here that may know what if anything I can do, but you never know til you ask.

About six weeks ago I bought a used car from a local dealer. I had never dealt with this dealer before but they have a really good reputation from people who have bought there.

This car is a 2014 Chevy Cruze. It was for a decent price. During the conversation with the salesman he advised me that he knew what kind of car we were getting because he traded it in himself. His teenage daughter has driven the car and it only had 26K miles on it. The car is in excellent shape as far as I can tell. During the buying process the guy showed me a "clean" carfax. We bought the car.

Today I went to get a quote on auto insurance with a local insurance guy and he was able to substantially beat what I was currently paying. When we were entering all the vehicle information, he asked me how long I had the car and I told him about six weeks. He then shows me that the car has had two previous claims that were paid on it. One for a little over 200 bucks and the other for a little over 2500 bucks. I realize that carfax doesn't have everything on a vehicle most or some of the time. My problem is that fact that he claims a clean carfax when he had prior knowledge that the vehicle had prior damage and he didn't disclose it to me. I figure he probably didn't do anything illegal but was wondering what if anything yall would do in my place? I messaged him tonight and basically said I was dismayed about it all and he messages back and says it wasn't that bad, that a deer had ran out in front of the car and a headlight and fenders were replaced and it seems by the amount that it was worse than it was. My problem is the at the least the ethics of it, but maybe i am an idiot to expect a car salesman to have any (no offense to any car salesmen or salesladies here).

I am in Florida if that matters, I know laws vary from state to state.

[pnoon]

He presented you a "clean" carfax.
Sounds like fraud to me.
I'd go right over his head to the dealer management.

[T.G]

Yep. That's fraud. And, yes, he did do something very illegal. Clean carfax or not, it was his car he knew all of that happened, did not disclose it, and then admitted such when he came clean with "the damage wasn't as bad as it sounds" horseshit speech. Do you have a copy of the "clean" carfax he showed you?

You can also go to the state, not sure offhand how it's handled in Florida so I can't say who or what division to contact but in CA there is a specific licensing board and investigative division for handling stuff like this. Florida is a big enough state that something similar probably exists.

[G G]

Originally Posted by T.G

Yep. That's fraud. And, yes, he did do something very illegal. Clean carfax or not, it was his car he knew all of that happened, did not disclose it, and then admitted such when he came clean with "the damage wasn't as bad as it sounds" horseshit speech. Do you have a copy of the "clean" carfax he showed you?

You can also go to the state, not sure offhand how it's handled in Florida so I can't say who or what division to contact but in CA there is a specific licensing board and investigative division for handling stuff like this. Florida is a big enough state that something similar probably exists.

Thanks and no I don't have a copy of the carfax. Should I purchase one now?

[T.G]

Originally Posted by G G

Thanks and no I don't have a copy of the carfax. Should I purchase one now?

I suppose you could, and if it comes up showing the claims he knew about but did not disclose when he claimed a clean carfax, then you might have a bit more leverage.

[mhailey]

I hate to be the Devil's advocate but did he say no claims or clean car fax? If just clean car fax, is it actually clean? Run it yourself. If your car fax report is not clean there could be fraud. If it is clean how did he lie or defraud you? What damages have you suffered through his nondisclosure? It is a used car with a $2500 repair. That is a rather nominal repair. A dented fender could be $2500. Is it bad form on his part? Absolutely! I don't know if you have a legal case though.

[mosesbotbol]

I am with mhailey on this. Did he say "clean CarFax" or no claims? Plenty of stuff can happen to a car and never make it to CarFax.

It's easy to tell when used a car salesperson is lying, they're lips are moving...

What do you want to happen in all of this? Do you want to return the car?

[G G]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

I am with mhailey on this. Did he say "clean CarFax" or no claims? Plenty of stuff can happen to a car and never make it to CarFax.

It's easy to tell when used a car salesperson is lying, they're lips are moving...

What do you want to happen in all of this? Do you want to return the car?

I prably would return it if I had the option. It's not that I am hating the car, it's the fact that I don't like buying wrecked cars and not knowing it. I don't buy cars very often and tend to keep them forever. Even though I kinda know that a carfax don't have everything sometimes it's still kinda in your mind when someone says it's clean that he is certainly implying that the car has never been wrecked. I didn't record the converstation obviously but I also have it floating around in my head that when he says it has a clean carfax I says then it's never been wrecked and that's good, and then he didn't say anything to the contrary. I realize being dishonest in and of itself isn't against the law and that there may be nothing I can do. Had I known that the car had been wrecked then I could have either said show me some other cars or tried to negotiate a better deal. Mhailey and you are probably right. Not seriously considering a lawsuit anyway, just wondering if there was any leverage with the dealership to complain and maybe get something out of the deal to make it right that he was dishonest. I have also talked to a friend of mine that has been selling cars for years and he tends to agree with you as well, but he also says that since the guy was the owner of the car, he felt like heknew that he didn't have a police report on the wreck so he used that to sell the car as clean with no wrecks even though he knew it had been. that is my major problem with the whole thing. If the dealership had aquired this car the normal way and it had a clean carfax and I had found out about the damage then we would be having this conversation, but the salesman owned the car and KNEW it had been wrecked and chose to hype the carfax anyway and not disclose the damage.

[G G]

Talked to a lawyer friend from another forum I am on. He advised me that there probably is nothing to be done as far as fraud goes. His recommendation is for him to send them a strongly worded letter asking for either to rescind the deal and them take the car back, which probably has a low chance of being accepted (but he said you never know til you try) or asking for a refund of $1500 since that represents 10% of the purchase price which would in his estimation be reasonable. In the letter will be a veiled threat that if there is no satisfaction then I will be filing a complaint with Chevrolet Corporate. I guess we will see what happens.

After thinking about it I am just going to ask for the refund since I have spent $200 bucks for window tinting, and $300 for a performance tune and I doubt that I would be able to get that back. If they were to give me $1500 that will make it worth it to me.

On the advice of the attn. I ran a carfax on it just now and there is no reported damage or anything else on the car. Which is the whole problem in a nutshell to me. The salesman is guilty of dishonesty by omission in my opinion which I guess isn't a crime but that don't make it right.

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by G G

Talked to a lawyer friend from another forum I am on. He advised me that there probably is nothing to be done as far as fraud goes. His recommendation is for him to send them a strongly worded letter asking for either to rescind the deal and them take the car back, which probably has a low chance of being accepted (but he said you never know til you try) or asking for a refund of $1500 since that represents 10% of the purchase price which would in his estimation be reasonable. In the letter will be a veiled threat that if there is no satisfaction then I will be filing a complaint with Chevrolet Corporate. I guess we will see what happens.

After thinking about it I am just going to ask for the refund since I have spent $200 bucks for window tinting, and $300 for a performance tune and I doubt that I would be able to get that back. If they were to give me $1500 that will make it worth it to me.

On the advice of the attn. I ran a carfax on it just now and there is no reported damage or anything else on the car. Which is the whole problem in a nutshell to me. The salesman is guilty of dishonesty by omission in my opinion which I guess isn't a crime but that don't make it right.

Once all is said and done, I would do this anyway.
Inform them what happened in a non-threatening way. Much like you did in this thread. Whether or not they act upon it is up to them. But they should certainly be made aware.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by G G

On the advice of the attn. I ran a carfax on it just now and there is no reported damage or anything else on the car. Which is the whole problem in a nutshell to me. The salesman is guilty of dishonesty by omission in my opinion which I guess isn't a crime but that don't make it right.

You might also be able to file a complaint with the consumer protection division of the state AG office. Him being a dealer rather than a private party might afford you some recourse here. Don't expect much other than them possibly sending a letter on your behalf, which in turn might help with your request for a partial refund. Regardless, it can't hurt.

[markem]

Here are two links that may be useful. I can't see on either how to file a complaint, but it is worth calling to ask.

http://www.flada.org/ The Florida Automobile Dealers Association

http://www.fiada.com/ Florida Independent Automobile Dealers Association -- seem to represent used car dealers.

[G G]

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas my friends. We will see what happens when we send the letter and go from there.

[mosesbotbol]

My friend who owns a dealership would say to customer looking at car with damage history, "Did you ever break a bone? Are you any less of a person?"

My advice to anyone concerned about accident damage is have the car looked at by a body shop. If the car is pretty new, under warranty or complete service records; it's the body that most of concern. Many mechanics aren't as keen at spotting body work as a body shop is.

You need not run away if there is previous body work, but knowing the honest picture of the car is important before deciding.

[G G]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

My friend who owns a dealership would say to customer looking at car with damage history, "Did you ever break a bone? Are you any less of a person?"

My advice to anyone concerned about accident damage is have the car looked at by a body shop. If the car is pretty new, under warranty or complete service records; it's the body that most of concern. Many mechanics aren't as keen at spotting body work as a body shop is.

You need not run away if there is previous body work, but knowing the honest picture of the car is important before deciding.

I don't disagree, hence my saying I am not against keeping the car. My problem in this whole thing is the fact that this car WAS THE SALESMANS CAR and he KNEW that it had prior damage and repair. Best I can tell they did a great job as I can't tell anything is out of the ordinary. BUT.......... I would have preferred to know this going in so that I could have decided to purchase this car and negotiate a lower price (which is why he lied to me) or look at other cars that haven't been previously wrecked. There is a pretty good chance that we are going to buy another Cruze very soon, and guess where it won't be purchased from?

[G G]

Originally Posted by mhailey

I hate to be the Devil's advocate but did he say no claims or clean car fax? If just clean car fax, is it actually clean? Run it yourself. If your car fax report is not clean there could be fraud. If it is clean how did he lie or defraud you? What damages have you suffered through his nondisclosure? It is a used car with a $2500 repair. That is a rather nominal repair. A dented fender could be $2500. Is it bad form on his part? Absolutely! I don't know if you have a legal case though.

I have went over the conversation we had when buying this car since this happened. early on when I posted this I was so angry and aggravated it probably had clouded my memory somewhat. My wife reminded me that when we were standing on the lot looking at the car, I asked the salesman if the car had ever been wrecked and the salesman told us he knew the history of this car because he traded it in and it had never been wrecked and he had a "clean" carfax to prove it and I was welcome to look at it which I did when we were at his desk later. His high school senior daughter had been the one driving it and I asked why he traded it in and he replied that she graduated this year and he traded it and bought her a Malibu. That is my problem. He knew it had been wrecked and lied when asked about it.

[AdamJoshua]

Well I don't know I think "wrecked" can be a relative term, and in his case when it's his relative it wasn't wrecked.

Seriously though, that is a term that can mean something different to different people, when I think wrecked I am thinking totaled, when I got my Z (a 2005 that I bought in 2010 so not new at all), someone backed into me in a parking lot and there was a 1.5 inch scratch on the front of the car, the insurance estimate to take off the bumper and repaint it was 1500 bucks, no bs, 1 inch scratch with no physical damage to the front and it was 1500 bucks.

[G G]

Originally Posted by AdamJoshua

Well I don't know I think "wrecked" can be a relative term, and in his case when it's his relative it wasn't wrecked.

Seriously though, that is a term that can mean something different to different people, when I think wrecked I am thinking totaled, when I got my Z (a 2005 that I bought in 2010 so not new at all), someone backed into me in a parking lot and there was a 1.5 inch scratch on the front of the car, the insurance estimate to take off the bumper and repaint it was 1500 bucks, no bs, 1 inch scratch with no physical damage to the front and it was 1500 bucks.

I hear what you are saying, but hitting a deer and having both fenders replaced and one headlight he claims is a wreck in my book.

[markem]

I would argue that he violated the code of ethics listed here:
http://www.fiada.com/?page=CodeofEthics

Specifically, these items:

Members have a general duty of integrity, honor and fair dealings toward the general public.

Members shall employ truth and accuracy in advertising and selling.

Members shall expose or halt, where found, any scheme designed to deceive or defraud
the automobile buying public and aid in prosecuting those guilty of such acts.

[G G]

Originally Posted by markem

I would argue that he violated the code of ethics listed here:
http://www.fiada.com/?page=CodeofEthics

Specifically, these items:

Members have a general duty of integrity, honor and fair dealings toward the general public.

Members shall employ truth and accuracy in advertising and selling.

Members shall expose or halt, where found, any scheme designed to deceive or defraud
the automobile buying public and aid in prosecuting those guilty of such acts.