Autofilling Humi for Walk In

[wolfandwhisky]

I'm completely ignorant to the logistics of large scale cigar storage - but my overwhelming can-do attitude and addictive personality are driving me into building a walk-in humidor.

Fortunately, I know a gent who is knowledgeable on the wood/sealant side of this. Unfortunately, I'm not sure where to turn for humidification.

Here is the thought:

Right above the room that would be converted to a humi runs the cold and hot water lines. I figure I can put some type of split line on the cold water line - maybe a hose bib or similar...

This line could then be managed with some type of control that adds water to an active humi system as required.

I'm not sure what type of humi or equipment I would need - and searching through old posts didn't find me anything (although I may have missed it - feel free to point me to the appropriate link).

So - has anyone done this or know how? I could do one unit with the water line feeding it, or daisy chain two but I think that might be overkill. The space is 5'x6'x10'.

[T.G]

About half the B&M's around here are using these Trion 707U auto-filling humidifiers:
http://www.filtersfast.com/Trion-Her...07U-Filter.asp

BUT, unless you are going to run that water through a purifier, preferably DI or a distiller, a good RO system in a pinch (not all RO units are created equal), first, it's probably not a good idea.

I'd say unless the humi is going to be 100 sq feet or more you probably won't need an auto-fill option, unless you plan to be away from it for extended periods. I'm not really familiar with the humidifiers used in walk-ins, but if you really do want to go an auto-fill route, you should probably still use distilled water. Tap water will leave a mineral buildup over time as water cycles through it.

A quick search on walk in humidifiers turned up this one: Link

Not sure what your budget looks like but that Humidifier isn't all that much more expensive than just buying a couple hydras for a cabinet. It does have an auto-fill feature, which you could hook up to a home distiller unit like like this one. It has a dispenser pump option that would in effect be the same thing as tapping into a water line.

My father-in-law sells distillers (owns that website), so I could talk your ear off about those all day long. I personally have this one in my house right now. It's actually hooked up to an auto-fill setup for a Hydroponic Garden I have going. We also use it for normal drinking water. The tap water here in Reno is horrid, and if you knew half the stuff I know about what is in tap water (and even bottled water) you'd probably never touch the stuff again. Even RO isn't all that great in comparison to distilled. Can't beat zero contaminants.

Anyway, if I was going to do it (and I'm sure I'll get there eventually), that would be the route I take.

-Chris

Looks like T.G beat me to the humidifier link. The site he posted is actually $100 cheaper than the one I put up. Can't really beat that Cubic Foot support for only $230.

Distillers aren't cheap though, as an FYI. I've never really shopped around other than the ones my FiL sells, but even the smallest ones will set you back a few hundred dollars, and one that can do 10 gallons a day will probably start around $1500.

You might be able to find one that can do around a gallon a day (can't see the humidifier using more than that) for around $500. Just make sure it can hook up to a pump for the auto-feed.

[wolfandwhisky]

interesting, thanks. I did not initially think about the distilled aspect, even though distilled is what I use in my vino now.

appreciate the links

[captain53]

Good: http://www.aristocrathumidors.com/electronic.htm

Good: http://www.hydrofogger.com/?OVRAW=hu...ID=27921012522

Very Good: http://habitatmonitor.com/humidifiers.php

Better: http://www.smartfog.com/humidifier-products.html



I don't know what your budget is but you are looking at a Lot of $ to have a walk-in that functions correctly. Cedar alone is in the $Thousands.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by wolfandwhisky

The space is 5'x6'x10'.

I missed that part when I responded last night. That's only 300sq ft, don't even think about one of those Trion 707U's , they'll turn the place into a swamp within minutes. Not to mention that you'd have to modify them to a lower fan speed or whatever wall is opposite the unit will end up soaked. When they kick in, they visibly blow cold steam 10'

Not sure if you're going to find a small auto-fill humidifier. You could probably modify just about any humidifier tank with a level/float switch tied to a relay that operates a solenoid valve on the water line though.

[captain53]

Originally Posted by T.G

I missed that part when I responded last night. That's only 300sq ft, don't even think about one of those Trion 707U's , they'll turn the place into a swamp within minutes. Not to mention that you'd have to modify them to a lower fan speed or whatever wall is opposite the unit will end up soaked. When they kick in, they visibly blow cold steam 10'

Not sure if you're going to find a small auto-fill humidifier. You could probably modify just about any humidifier tank with a level/float switch tied to a relay that operates a solenoid valve on the water line though.

I missed the size too - much smaller than I was thinking when you say walk-in, Still looking at a lot of $ in materials for something that functions correctly and is reliable.

[wolfandwhisky]

Originally Posted by captain53

I don't know what your budget is but you are looking at a Lot of $ to have a walk-in that functions correctly. Cedar alone is in the $Thousands.

Thanks for the links Dave - I'll take a look. As for budget... Unlimited. Ha ha, I wish. I don't want to get cheap on it, because I want it to function appropriately. I do have a line on cedar, from what I've been told, where it will be a bit cheaper than in the thousands.

Originally Posted by T.G

I missed that part when I responded last night. That's only 300sq ft, don't even think about one of those Trion 707U's , they'll turn the place into a swamp within minutes. Not to mention that you'd have to modify them to a lower fan speed or whatever wall is opposite the unit will end up soaked. When they kick in, they visibly blow cold steam 10'

Not sure if you're going to find a small auto-fill humidifier. You could probably modify just about any humidifier tank with a level/float switch tied to a relay that operates a solenoid valve on the water line though.

That modification system is kind of what I was thinking, and was wondering if anyone has done it and could provide some insights. But after considering the distilled part, I'd probably be better off daisy chaining a couple smaller units and just refilling with distilled water every week/month as needed.

This project, if it goes forward, would likely be a few months out - so I have time to research/plan.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by wolfandwhisky

That modification system is kind of what I was thinking, and was wondering if anyone has done it and could provide some insights. But after considering the distilled part, I'd probably be better off daisy chaining a couple smaller units and just refilling with distilled water every week/month as needed.

This project, if it goes forward, would likely be a few months out - so I have time to research/plan.

No need to daisy chain, the room's not big enough to need it. There are some larger upright units that hold a few gallons of water that would probably work fine for you.

Sometime in the next few weeks, I'll take a look at the floor units that Cardenas Cigars has in their walk in and get back to you.

[wolfandwhisky]

Originally Posted by T.G

No need to daisy chain, the room's not big enough to need it. There are some larger upright units that hold a few gallons of water that would probably work fine for you.

Sometime in the next few weeks, I'll take a look at the floor units that Cardenas Cigars has in their walk in and get back to you.

Thank - I'm looking forward to what you follow up with.

Not sure how DIY you are, but you could look into building your own humidifier as well. I couldn't really tell what the Trion 707U uses to vaporize the water, but it's probably something like an Ultrasonic Fogger (Nebulizer). I've used these in Hydroponics as well. They create a fog with a droplet size of 5 microns or less, which is considered 'dry' fog. You can hold your hand in the fog and pull it out and it won't be wet.

This site has a good selection of foggers: Mainland Mart

A single fogger head will run an average of around $30. I don't think a humidor humidifier would need more than that. You don't want to blast the atmosphere with water, just keep the %RH level. They sell little floats for a few bucks that will keep the fogger at the apropriate depth in the water. For a container you could use a 2 or 3 gallon cooler (I'll coin the term: Coolidifier).

With that you will need a humidity switch in between the fogger and the power outlet. Something like This One for around $40. The power to the fogger will stay on until the humidity gets to your set point (70%) and then shut off. If it drops below that, the power will kick back on.

From there you just need to cut a hole in the cooler and attach a small DC Fan to it. It's usually better to have the fan blowing in to the unit, rather than out, unless you have a waterproof fan. So you'd actually need to cut 2 holes in the cooler. One for Input that the fan blows into, and the fog will automatically come out of the output hole. Hook the fan up to the humidity switch as well so it only kicks on when the fogger is running. Fans can be found for less than $10 (Basically the same fans that are used to cool computer cases), and you would just need a DC power supply for it. Match up the power rating of the fan you want with a power supply (i.e. 12VDC @ 500mA). Here's an example of some power supplies: Here

In all you can probably assemble everything for less than $150.

The main fogger units will last for years, but the little nebulizer disks have a 6-12 month life span. If you don't use distilled water, they can burn out in less than a month. They can be replaced for a few dollars each though. That same Mainland Mart site sells the replacement teflon coated disks.

Anyway, just throwing out some other options.

[wolfandwhisky]

awesome Chris - thanks for the idea!

[Kreth]

Damn, I thought this was a GB for an auto-filling humidor.
Posted via Mobile Device

[wolfandwhisky]

Originally Posted by Kreth

Damn, I thought this was a GB for an auto-filling humidor.
Posted via Mobile Device

if only such a creature existed...

Matt,
Sounds like you have a fun project. The measurements given are 300 cubic feet. As someone suggested the Trion 707 would be overkill. It is a centripetal device, which means it makes fairly large droplets- with probably not enough room to evaporate before hitting something & soaking it.

Other choices would be a simple evaporative type of humidifier with 3-5 gallon per day output. We use off the shelf humidifiers as well as custom systems & match them up to the digital Set & Forget control for tighter control (2%) of RH. Advantage is low cost & easily maintained. Can be fitted with autofill.

The ultrasonic fogger is very intriguing. I am very familiar with the Habitat Ultrasonic, which can run $$$$ for a walk in, but have heard they are quite efficient. This is the first time I have seen Ultrasonic heads with reasonable output at a civilized price. I am going to order one of the larger ones just to play with. I don't have much information on which of these sizes would work best, but given the low cost, one with 3 heads & 1500ml output would be a good start. If you have a good sensitive control, higher output won't hurt you. Too small & it will never keep up or turn off.

To do auto fill get a 4-5 stage R/O system, not just a filtration system. There are dissolved minerals that will trash out whatever humidifier you get in very short order with improperly treated city water. Most need to be near a drain to offload excess water.

You can use the dial type analog control for humidity-they are inexpensive, but digital will allow for a tighter control of range. Most tape type dial sensors have plus-minus ranges of 4-8% and have a lot of fiddle factor to dial in. I am biased, but I would never trust an analog sensor control. I used them before digital was available & they can be a challenge to maintain tight ranges of RH. Some work well, others drift quite badly.

Have fun with it.

cheers,
Bob Staebell

[wolfandwhisky]

Thanks Bob - great info.

You actually touched on a question I was thinking of posting - why not use a filtration system as opposed to R/O or distillation? I'm thinking along the lines of Britta, etc.

You mention a drain - do R/O and/or distillation systems need a drain? I figured there would just be some type of part or filter that would occasionally be replaced. There is a drain in an adjacent room, but I doubt it would be practical to run a line to it. I could just punch a hole in the exterior wall and let the water out that way, though.

There are also some pre-built fogger setups out there if you don't want to DIY it. You'd still need your own Humidistat though.

This vid shows the output difference between the Prefab 10, 5, and 3 Head foggers made by Nutramist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oAQh8kH94E

The boxes that the foggers are in are basically what I described previously. They have an auto-fill ability to keep the fogger at the right depth, a fan that blows into the box, and you can attach a hose for the fog output.

In Hydroponics, more is better so I usually apply as many fogger heads as I can. In a Humidor setup though, I would think less is more. Most humi systems rely on normal evaporation to avoid wild swings in humidity. Active systems just apply a fan to speed up evaporation. A 10 Head fogger could have a foot of thick fog floating on the floor of 5'x6' room within a couple minutes. Even running one for 15 seconds could cause a room that small to shift 5-10% RH. By the time the Humidistat recognized that the target % has been achieved to shut the fogger off, there would still be a bunch of fog evaporating.

I'd just recommend a single head fogger unless you're looking at 1000 Cubic Feet or more. Then you could maybe bump it up to a 3 Head. I'd probably still stay at 1 head for anything but a warehouse though.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by wolfandwhisky

Thanks Bob - great info.

You actually touched on a question I was thinking of posting - why not use a filtration system as opposed to R/O or distillation? I'm thinking along the lines of Britta, etc.

You mention a drain - do R/O and/or distillation systems need a drain? I figured there would just be some type of part or filter that would occasionally be replaced. There is a drain in an adjacent room, but I doubt it would be practical to run a line to it. I could just punch a hole in the exterior wall and let the water out that way, though.

Filters alone just won't cut it, they leave all kinds of crap behind.

Some RO's need drains and pretty much all distillers need drains.

Distillers don't boil the water all the way down when they make steam, they are left with a brine full of heavy solids and "crap" in the boiling vessel that must be disposed of. Boiling all the way down and not flushing the vessel would eventually ruin the unit due to scaling. Some RO systems use a high-pressure backflush to extend filter and membrane life, when backflushing, the contaminated discharge needs to be disposed of.

Originally Posted by wolfandwhisky

Thanks Bob - great info.

You actually touched on a question I was thinking of posting - why not use a filtration system as opposed to R/O or distillation? I'm thinking along the lines of Britta, etc.

You mention a drain - do R/O and/or distillation systems need a drain? I figured there would just be some type of part or filter that would occasionally be replaced. There is a drain in an adjacent room, but I doubt it would be practical to run a line to it. I could just punch a hole in the exterior wall and let the water out that way, though.

Filter systems (Britta, etc) usually don't do much to remove contaminants. They are usually just carbon filters. Running water through activated carbon will make it taste 'fresher'. Any chemicals or mineral deposits in the water will still be there though. Another problem with those is that they can trap some bacteria and other things inside, making the 'filter' a new home for germ breeding. If you get one that attaches to your sink, run water through it for about an hour per day for a month and then cut it in half. It will usually be full of 'slime'. No good.

Most distillers that I am familiar with do not have runoff. All water passes through a boiling chamber and only steam comes out which condenses into the holding container. You just take the boiling tank out and rinse it out every 6-12 months. Here in Reno running a distiller for 12 months I can fill a gallon zip-lock bag about half full with the 'sludge' that is left behind. I wouldn't put a distiller in the humidor itself though. They do generate a lot of heat. With a pump on the distiller you can run a water line in to the humidor from wherever the distiller is located.

RO systems are pretty good. Most do incorporate a runoff system which have varying degrees of efficiency depending on the system. Some can be as bad as flushing 7 gallons of water down the drain for every gallon of clean water they produce. I believe you can get the same pumps for RO systems that are available on distillers, so it doesn't have to be inside the humidor itself. Usually people put them under their kitchen sinks. My only issue with RO is that it's not 100% effective at removing contaminants. Certianly better than nothing if a distiller is not available though.