Honduran Coup

troutbreath · 06-29-2009, 07:04 AM

Ok, so what does this mean for my cigars?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/..._honduras_coup

OLS · 06-29-2009, 09:57 AM

I didn't read the whole thing, but if Chavez is for it, I am for the opposite.

NCRadioMan · 06-29-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troutbreath

Ok, so what does this mean for my cigars?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/..._honduras_coup

I would think that since cigars are a very important part of their economy, for the most part, they would be left alone. Just speculation though. And I am with Brad on the tool, Chavez.

Made in Dade · 06-29-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLS

I didn't read the whole thing, but if Chavez is for it, I am for the opposite.

The Poet · 06-29-2009, 01:40 PM

God, I hope so. If I can't get my Villazons, I see no reason to live.

Do I put a smiley here? This is both a joke, and most decidedly is NOT.

kydsid · 06-29-2009, 02:41 PM

The info I am getting from various sources say that this was more of a prevented coup. Some of the spanish language sources say that the people are behind this effort and that the president tried to use the military to take over and they instead sided with the courts and congress and tossed him out on his ass.

As for the cigars political changes asside it only matters if the companies think they or their employees are in danger. You could change governments all day long on a cigar company as long as you leave them alone and give em cheap labor. They already know the type of countries they are in and are used to these things.

csbrewfisher · 06-29-2009, 02:49 PM

There is no coup.

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17676

csbrewfisher · 06-30-2009, 12:04 PM

The real question is "What does it mean for OUR country?

e-man67 · 06-30-2009, 12:13 PM

Love the cartoon...

csbrewfisher · 06-30-2009, 12:27 PM

This email and attachments are from a Honduran resident who is a laison for our church there...

Dear Family and Friends,

First I want to let everybody know we are all safe and that things are getting back to normal here in the capital of Honduras. It has been a frustrating couple of days. Personally I have been amazed at the difference between what is actually happening here (on the ground) and what is reported in the news media around the world. I have always been skeptical of certain media outlets but this whole situation has taken my skepticism to a new level of distrust. Below I have copied first a post from a local organization called Project Honduras. www.projecthonduras.com The second piece of information is from the Wall Street Journal today’s edition. Both in my opinion are a portrayal of what is actually happening in Honduras.

The airport is open and was never closed. There are hundreds of brigades in the country at this moment. They are taking precautions but everything is fine. At this point my biggest concern is that the real news of what is happening in Tegucigalpa be reported accurately. Below are the feelings of a large majority of the people in our country believe.

I will try to keep you all updated in the next couple of days.

Scott

(Taken from Project Honduras blog)

In several of his interviews following his arrest and expulsion from Honduras, President Manuel Zelaya has portrayed himself as an innocent victim of a coup d'état (“golpe de estado”). His view has been amplified by foreign leaders such as President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, Daniel Ortega of Nicaragua, and Rafael Correa of Ecuador.

The impression that this view has conveyed to the world is that the arrest by Honduran troops during the morning of June 28 signaled a dangerous return to the 1960s and 1970s when rogue generals such as Oswaldo López Arellano and Juan Alberto Melgar Castro regularly overthrew presidents by force and ruled Honduras through military juntas. This impression is inaccurate. Honduras’ armed forces have invested much time, effort and financial capital during the past three decades to reform itself and emerge as a professional and apolitical institution.

The decision to arrest and exile Mr. Zelaya was made by Honduras’ Supreme Court and backed by a Congress that is nearly unanimous in its opposition to Mr. Zelaya. The military, led by the head of the Joint Chiefs, General Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, moved against the president only after the Supreme Court, the Congress, the Attorney General, and the Commissioner for Human Rights determined that a series of political maneuvers by Mr. Zelaya were illegal under the country’s Constitution and had the potential to cause severe public unrest and lead to Mr. Zelaya trying to remain in office past his current four-year term. The Constitution of Honduras prohibits second terms for presidents.

General Vásquez was placed in the unenviable position of having to choose whether to be loyal to his Commander in Chief or to the Constitution, as interpreted by the Judiciary and Legislative branches of the government. Mr. Zelaya weakened his own credibility with the military by publicly sacking General Vásquez for refusing to support a legally questionable referendum that had been scheduled to begin the morning of his arrest. The dismissal of Vásquez led the heads of Honduras’ three services of the armed forces, as well as the civilian Minister of Defense, to resign in a show of solidarity.

The reality is that the Honduran military found itself in a no-win situation by a continually escalating conflict involving Honduras’ three branches of government. The inability of Honduras’ civilian political leaders to establish a civil dialogue on how to resolve their differences forced General Vásquez and his staff to choose their allegiance. Ultimately, the general opted for what he viewed as defending the Constitution. If there are any “victims” in this chapter of Honduran history, it is the armed forces, not the politicians.

Wall Street Journal

Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's constitution.

It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking.

But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground.

That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.

Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development."

Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office.

For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization.

The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup.

The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of institutions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.

06-29-2009, 07:04 AM	#1
troutbreath Feeling at Home Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Mike Location: The Dash, NC Posts: 706 Trading: (0)	Honduran Coup Ok, so what does this mean for my cigars? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/..._honduras_coup

06-29-2009, 09:57 AM	#2
OLS Suck It Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Brad Location: TN Posts: 7,912 Trading: (19)	Re: Honduran Coup I didn't read the whole thing, but if Chavez is for it, I am for the opposite.

06-29-2009, 01:40 PM	#5
The Poet Il megglior fabbro Join Date: Jun 2009 First Name: Thomas Location: Hickory, NC Posts: 8,420 Trading: (2)	Re: Honduran Coup God, I hope so. If I can't get my Villazons, I see no reason to live. Do I put a smiley here? This is both a joke, and most decidedly is NOT.

06-29-2009, 02:41 PM	#6
kydsid Ditat Deus Join Date: Apr 2009 First Name: Jason Location: Among the Pines Posts: 2,361 Trading: (46)	Re: Honduran Coup The info I am getting from various sources say that this was more of a prevented coup. Some of the spanish language sources say that the people are behind this effort and that the president tried to use the military to take over and they instead sided with the courts and congress and tossed him out on his ass. As for the cigars political changes asside it only matters if the companies think they or their employees are in danger. You could change governments all day long on a cigar company as long as you leave them alone and give em cheap labor. They already know the type of countries they are in and are used to these things.

06-29-2009, 02:49 PM	#7
csbrewfisher Welcome to my nightmare Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Jerry Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Trading: (10)	Re: Honduran Coup There is no coup. http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17676

06-30-2009, 12:04 PM	#8
csbrewfisher Welcome to my nightmare Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Jerry Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Trading: (10)	Re: Honduran Coup The real question is "What does it mean for OUR country?

06-30-2009, 12:13 PM	#9
e-man67 Big Drunkin Monkey!! Join Date: Mar 2009 First Name: Eric Posts: 1,480 Trading: (29)	Re: Honduran Coup Love the cartoon...

06-30-2009, 12:27 PM	#10
csbrewfisher Welcome to my nightmare Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Jerry Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Trading: (10)	Re: Honduran Coup This email and attachments are from a Honduran resident who is a laison for our church there... Dear Family and Friends, First I want to let everybody know we are all safe and that things are getting back to normal here in the capital of Honduras. It has been a frustrating couple of days. Personally I have been amazed at the difference between what is actually happening here (on the ground) and what is reported in the news media around the world. I have always been skeptical of certain media outlets but this whole situation has taken my skepticism to a new level of distrust. Below I have copied first a post from a local organization called Project Honduras. www.projecthonduras.com The second piece of information is from the Wall Street Journal today’s edition. Both in my opinion are a portrayal of what is actually happening in Honduras. The airport is open and was never closed. There are hundreds of brigades in the country at this moment. They are taking precautions but everything is fine. At this point my biggest concern is that the real news of what is happening in Tegucigalpa be reported accurately. Below are the feelings of a large majority of the people in our country believe. I will try to keep you all updated in the next couple of days. Scott (Taken from Project Honduras blog) In several of his interviews following his arrest and expulsion from Honduras, President Manuel Zelaya has portrayed himself as an innocent victim of a coup d'état (“golpe de estado”). His view has been amplified by foreign leaders such as President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, Daniel Ortega of Nicaragua, and Rafael Correa of Ecuador. The impression that this view has conveyed to the world is that the arrest by Honduran troops during the morning of June 28 signaled a dangerous return to the 1960s and 1970s when rogue generals such as Oswaldo López Arellano and Juan Alberto Melgar Castro regularly overthrew presidents by force and ruled Honduras through military juntas. This impression is inaccurate. Honduras’ armed forces have invested much time, effort and financial capital during the past three decades to reform itself and emerge as a professional and apolitical institution. The decision to arrest and exile Mr. Zelaya was made by Honduras’ Supreme Court and backed by a Congress that is nearly unanimous in its opposition to Mr. Zelaya. The military, led by the head of the Joint Chiefs, General Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, moved against the president only after the Supreme Court, the Congress, the Attorney General, and the Commissioner for Human Rights determined that a series of political maneuvers by Mr. Zelaya were illegal under the country’s Constitution and had the potential to cause severe public unrest and lead to Mr. Zelaya trying to remain in office past his current four-year term. The Constitution of Honduras prohibits second terms for presidents. General Vásquez was placed in the unenviable position of having to choose whether to be loyal to his Commander in Chief or to the Constitution, as interpreted by the Judiciary and Legislative branches of the government. Mr. Zelaya weakened his own credibility with the military by publicly sacking General Vásquez for refusing to support a legally questionable referendum that had been scheduled to begin the morning of his arrest. The dismissal of Vásquez led the heads of Honduras’ three services of the armed forces, as well as the civilian Minister of Defense, to resign in a show of solidarity. The reality is that the Honduran military found itself in a no-win situation by a continually escalating conflict involving Honduras’ three branches of government. The inability of Honduras’ civilian political leaders to establish a civil dialogue on how to resolve their differences forced General Vásquez and his staff to choose their allegiance. Ultimately, the general opted for what he viewed as defending the Constitution. If there are any “victims” in this chapter of Honduran history, it is the armed forces, not the politicians. Wall Street Journal Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's constitution. It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking. But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground. That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress. But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do. The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused. Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order. The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica. It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too. Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government. Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it. Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development." Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office. For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization. The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup. The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of institutions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.