Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machine?

02-22-2009, 12:45 PM

While I think they do have some use.
Some tickets could be nitpicking, but look at the $$$ they generated at only 4 intersections...

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1217734.html

14holestogie · 02-22-2009, 12:56 PM

Obey the laws and no tickets are handed out, as some of our lawmen BOTL would say. Read the last paragraph. They are having the desired effect.

02-22-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14holestogie

Obey the laws and no tickets are handed out, as some of our lawmen BOTL would say. Read the last paragraph. They are having the desired effect.

I do agree you must ALWAYS respect the law, but to say that in real life, if you manned the same sites with "the fine law enforcement officials of flesh and blood "(exchange 1 official for 1 camera) the ticket count would be even half that..
And most of the time these $$ are collected from a billing agency out side of the state.

And its about the $$ just as toll roads, and the coming tax per mile driven..

14holestogie · 02-22-2009, 01:12 PM

Yeah, I was playing lawman's advocate there, but by the same token, with all the restrained budgets and the effect that they have on manpower, you can't begrudge the city from trying something more efficient.
Same concept as when robotics starting taking over industry. You free up the person that would have had to do the same thing to do something else more worthwhile. I'd much rather have an officer available while I'm getting mugged than have him writing a ticket.

Gonesledn · 02-22-2009, 01:16 PM

we have a couple hundred of them here in the Chicago area, with over a hundred mor on the way.

one big problem seems to be rear end accidents caused by people last minute slamming the breaks to avoid the ticket.

ucla695 · 02-22-2009, 01:19 PM

Both. They have a legitimate use, but I think that cities rely on them as an additional source of revenue, especially with budget constraints. Let me preface what I'm about to say by stating that if we all obey traffic laws, drive safely, yada, yada, yada, we don't have anything to worry about. However, that's not the reality for a lot of drivers. My biggest problem with them is that people should know somewhat instantly when they are cited for breaking a traffic law (i.e. getting pulled over by an officer), not several weeks later, because that knowledge will help alter future driving habits (fear of insurance going up, losing ones license, etc..). The sooner you know, the sooner you can adjust. That said, they do help and in California there are warning signs before intersections with these cams. Ultimately, play by the rules and you don't have anything to worry about.

14holestogie · 02-22-2009, 01:20 PM

I know out in Phoenix they have the cameras on most of the overpasses for the speeders, too. I know I've waited for the mail with trepidation a couple times after seeing that flash go off. Knock on wood, either it wasn't me or they use a little discretion.

ucla695 · 02-22-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14holestogie

I know out in Phoenix they have the cameras on most of the overpasses for the speeders, too. I know I've waited for the mail with trepidation a couple times after seeing that flash go off. Knock on wood, either it wasn't me or they use a little discretion.

I've heard about those. These scare me even more than red light cams. Do they post warning signs or does the speed limit function as one?

Most of the (sub)urban freeways in SoCal have 65mph speed limits, but the reality is that traffic flows around 75 to 80ish.

14holestogie · 02-22-2009, 01:31 PM

There may have ben a sign or two, but like you say if you're flowing with the traffic,15 mph over the limit is not uncommon. The flash scares you more than anything else and at least gets you thinking about your speed.

ucla695 · 02-22-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14holestogie

There may have ben a sign or two, but like you say if you're flowing with the traffic,15 mph over the limit is not uncommon. The flash scares you more than anything else and at least gets you thinking about your speed.

No kidding. Snaps you back to reality.

SeanGAR · 02-22-2009, 01:47 PM

Speed limits are capricious. I have been on the same highway when it was 55 as when it was 75. What was the difference? Same piece of asphalt. Politics. Should we be basing speed limits on politics? Not a big fan of idiot politicians myself. I consider a speeding ticket for going 81 on an interstate to be theft, pure and simple.

Don Fernando · 02-22-2009, 01:55 PM

don't speed, don't drive when the light is red and you won't get tickets. Speed, or run a red light and you could be ticketed. You're the one speeding or running the red light, if there is someone to blame, blame yourself.

02-22-2009, 05:22 PM

The problem is that there is lots of evidence that the companies that run these red light cameras will not install them on lights that have an adequate yellow time. For example:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...onal-trend.ars

And in one case the company was altering the yellow times to trap more motorists:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...low-lights.ars

Texan in Mexico · 02-22-2009, 05:31 PM

I say good tool!

The truth of the matter is that's the law, like it or not.

For those that are not in agreement, you must obey the established law until it is modified by the government.

If there are sufficient reasons to modify the law it will be done through a referendum by the voting public.

That's the advantage of living in a democracy.

icehog3 · 02-22-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zonedar

The problem is that there is lots of evidence that the companies that run these red light cameras will not install them on lights that have an adequate yellow time. For example:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...onal-trend.ars

Quote:

Originally Posted by arstechnica

Six possible red-light "gotcha" stories, some of which go back as far as 2005, were originally reported by theNewspaper, but were compiled into a single list of events by motorists.org. One city, Chattanooga, Tenneessee, has been forced to repay the $8,800 it collected in ticket revenue, while investigations in Lubbock and Dallas, Texas and Springfield, Missouri, have uncovered evidence of similar practices, although no charges have been filed

6 stories is 5 years hardly qualifies as "lots of evidence", being that there are thousands of cities using the devices.

That being said, it would be naive to say that these aren't set-up, at least in part, to generate revenue. Of course they are.

02-22-2009, 06:02 PM

That was an exaggeration. You're right and I apologize.

But there is evidence that increasing yellow times not only reduces revenue from these camera, but also reduces accidents. And that's what these cameras are all about, safety. Right?

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...mera-contract/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...bkyhi.asp?pg=2

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/reports/rlcreport.asp

http://www.hwysafety.com/nma_rlc_timeline4.htm

BigFrank · 02-22-2009, 06:05 PM

Having worked on "that" side of the law, I personally think they are total BS. It first started here in my city as just red light cameras, now there are surveillance cameras on every corner in the city. They are nothing more than a money generating machine, which by all accounts isnt being used wisely anyways. My state is only a few BIL in the rears. Which will and is leading the way to even more cameras just "watching" for crime.

Where and When will it stop?
Sorry to possibly start a huge debate, but it goes beyond a lot of my personal beliefs, and possibly some constitutional ones also.

Just my 2 cents

icehog3 · 02-22-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zonedar

That was an exaggeration. You're right and I apologize.

But there is evidence that increasing yellow times not only reduces revenue from these camera, but also reduces accidents. And that's what these cameras are all about, safety. Right?

I absolutely agree with you that revenue is a major factor. And also that the lights controlled by these cameras should be mandated to have a reasonable yellow time.

They will still make their money from those who think yellow means "floor it", and from people who can't understand that "right on red" means after you stop, not just "slow down" or "yield".

SeanGAR · 02-22-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icehog3

6 stories is 5 years hardly qualifies as "lots of evidence"

Well Tom, you realize that if there are 6 stories reported in 5 years then there are probably way more if you include those that were not reported. So there could easily have been 7 or possibly 8 cases in those 5 years. 7 cases ... well I call that a veritable FLOOD of cases.

BigFrank · 02-22-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Well Tom, you realize that if there are 6 stories reported in 5 years then there are probably way more if you include those that were not reported. So there could easily have been 7 or possibly 8 cases in those 5 years. 7 cases ... well I call that a veritable FLOOD of cases.

What a lot of people fail to realize is there are most likely many many more, a lot of people cannot afford to miss work and such to fight a 50-100 ticket in court. Think about it, if I got one I would just pay they are a no point ticket anyways.

02-22-2009, 12:45 PM	#1
Gone Dave Guest Posts: n/a	Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machine? While I think they do have some use. Some tickets could be nitpicking, but look at the $$$ they generated at only 4 intersections... http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1217734.html

02-22-2009, 12:56 PM	#2
14holestogie Serial banter killer Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Clintonville, WI Posts: 4,341 Trading: (52)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi Obey the laws and no tickets are handed out, as some of our lawmen BOTL would say. Read the last paragraph. They are having the desired effect. __________________ *I loves me a Parti*

02-22-2009, 01:12 PM	#4
14holestogie Serial banter killer Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Clintonville, WI Posts: 4,341 Trading: (52)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi Yeah, I was playing lawman's advocate there, but by the same token, with all the restrained budgets and the effect that they have on manpower, you can't begrudge the city from trying something more efficient. Same concept as when robotics starting taking over industry. You free up the person that would have had to do the same thing to do something else more worthwhile. I'd much rather have an officer available while I'm getting mugged than have him writing a ticket. __________________ *I loves me a Parti*

02-22-2009, 01:16 PM	#5
Gonesledn making trails Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Wes Location: South Burbs Chicago Posts: 547 Trading: (31)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi we have a couple hundred of them here in the Chicago area, with over a hundred mor on the way. one big problem seems to be rear end accidents caused by people last minute slamming the breaks to avoid the ticket.

02-22-2009, 01:19 PM	#6
ucla695 Neither here, nor there Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: The Pool Posts: 3,696 Trading: (5)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi Both. They have a legitimate use, but I think that cities rely on them as an additional source of revenue, especially with budget constraints. Let me preface what I'm about to say by stating that if we all obey traffic laws, drive safely, yada, yada, yada, we don't have anything to worry about. However, that's not the reality for a lot of drivers. My biggest problem with them is that people should know somewhat instantly when they are cited for breaking a traffic law (i.e. getting pulled over by an officer), not several weeks later, because that knowledge will help alter future driving habits (fear of insurance going up, losing ones license, etc..). The sooner you know, the sooner you can adjust. That said, they do help and in California there are warning signs before intersections with these cams. Ultimately, play by the rules and you don't have anything to worry about.

02-22-2009, 01:20 PM	#7
14holestogie Serial banter killer Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Clintonville, WI Posts: 4,341 Trading: (52)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi I know out in Phoenix they have the cameras on most of the overpasses for the speeders, too. I know I've waited for the mail with trepidation a couple times after seeing that flash go off. Knock on wood, either it wasn't me or they use a little discretion. __________________ *I loves me a Parti*

02-22-2009, 01:31 PM	#9
14holestogie Serial banter killer Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Clintonville, WI Posts: 4,341 Trading: (52)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi There may have ben a sign or two, but like you say if you're flowing with the traffic,15 mph over the limit is not uncommon. The flash scares you more than anything else and at least gets you thinking about your speed. __________________ *I loves me a Parti*

02-22-2009, 01:47 PM	#11
SeanGAR Crotchety Geezer Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Radford VA Posts: 911 Trading: (3)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi Speed limits are capricious. I have been on the same highway when it was 55 as when it was 75. What was the difference? Same piece of asphalt. Politics. Should we be basing speed limits on politics? Not a big fan of idiot politicians myself. I consider a speeding ticket for going 81 on an interstate to be theft, pure and simple. __________________ How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

02-22-2009, 01:55 PM	#12
Don Fernando Postwhore Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Ferdinand Location: Singapore Posts: 10,070 Trading: (29)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi don't speed, don't drive when the light is red and you won't get tickets. Speed, or run a red light and you could be ticketed. You're the one speeding or running the red light, if there is someone to blame, blame yourself. __________________ check out my reviews on my blog.

02-22-2009, 05:22 PM	#13
zonedar Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi The problem is that there is lots of evidence that the companies that run these red light cameras will not install them on lights that have an adequate yellow time. For example: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...onal-trend.ars And in one case the company was altering the yellow times to trap more motorists: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...low-lights.ars

02-22-2009, 05:31 PM	#14
Texan in Mexico Feeling at Home Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Travis Location: Puerto Morelos, Mexico Posts: 958 Trading: (0)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi I say good tool! The truth of the matter is that's the law, like it or not. For those that are not in agreement, you must obey the established law until it is modified by the government. If there are sufficient reasons to modify the law it will be done through a referendum by the voting public. That's the advantage of living in a democracy.

02-22-2009, 06:02 PM	#16
zonedar Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi That was an exaggeration. You're right and I apologize. But there is evidence that increasing yellow times not only reduces revenue from these camera, but also reduces accidents. And that's what these cameras are all about, safety. Right? http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...mera-contract/ http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...bkyhi.asp?pg=2 http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/reports/rlcreport.asp http://www.hwysafety.com/nma_rlc_timeline4.htm

02-22-2009, 06:05 PM	#17
BigFrank 5 3 1 Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Frank Location: Gym or Sofa. Posts: 1,896 Trading: (25)	Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi Having worked on "that" side of the law, I personally think they are total BS. It first started here in my city as just red light cameras, now there are surveillance cameras on every corner in the city. They are nothing more than a money generating machine, which by all accounts isnt being used wisely anyways. My state is only a few BIL in the rears. Which will and is leading the way to even more cameras just "watching" for crime. Where and When will it stop? Sorry to possibly start a huge debate, but it goes beyond a lot of my personal beliefs, and possibly some constitutional ones also. Just my 2 cents __________________ " Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. "