stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

[SeanGAR]

It is no surprise that manufacturers play different segments of the market. Most do. The original postulation was that the exact same brand and type of cigar exists in two quality levels.

Say for a second that Laura SeanGAR sells dressed in Saks for $500 and up and in my boutique at place de vendome for $3000 and up. We make a cheaper line for Sam's with our name, Laura SeanGAR. We're just playing market segmentation. This is not at all the same as if we sold the exact name and model dress at 2 quality levels, one in Saks and one in Sam's for different prices. So I see no relevance here whatsoever.

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

So I see no relevance here whatsoever.

We've already established that you wouldn't regardless. You've already stated that you WILL NOT entertain the possibility of this topic being anything but what you think. Regardless of the fact that neither side can be proven. You have made it clear that you have your stance and there is not possibility of any other. Your participation at this point is redundant why read any more posts.

[chippewastud79]

Originally Posted by Legend

We've already established that you wouldn't regardless. You've already stated that you WILL NOT entertain the possibility of this topic being anything but what you think. Regardless of the fact that neither side can be proven. You have made it clear that you have your stance and there is not possibility of any other. Your participation at this point is redundant why read any more posts.

I thought your whole point was that it can be proven and you were asking for back-up to the fact besides your B+M friends opinions. Why else would you be asking us and go so far as to ask the manufacturers themselves?

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

I thought your whole point was that it can be proven and you were asking for back-up to the fact besides your B+M friends opinions. Why else would you be asking us and go so far as to ask the manufacturers themselves?

My whole point was for a discussion on it. I've been open as far as what the outcome could be, I had my opinion and supported it, but recognized that it was not a provable premise. Certain other posters preferred to fight instead of discuss. To discuss you need to be open to the fact that your opinion may not be correct or you will just fight. My point on the above post was that Seangar in particular has chosen to fight on this matter and not discuss. If that's all you're gonna do post the opinion and move on.

[Da Klugs]

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

If you go back to the original post.... there could be validity in it.

Say for example a cigar Mfg like Torano who makes cigars for others is commissioned to make a "line" for one of the on line guys. Figure the price may come into play there. Lesser value materials used because of the price point demanded. Always wondered what the relationship in the wholesale price was ... Labor vs material costs.

Conversely, the concept of "brand" is pretty important to most manufacturers. Their name is on the darn things. To purposely make a product that varies in quality by where you buy it does not make much sense and is hard to believe from a business owners perspective. Different cigar name band etc sure, but not the identical cigar.

Most cigars are not purchased directly from the manufacturers but through distributors. These distributors are typically the ones setting price points and determining physically which cigars go where.

Maybe the OP just prefers the flavors over humidification provides in most B&M's vs cigars from a home humidor.

Originally Posted by Legend

My whole point was for a discussion on it. I've been open as far as what the outcome could be, I had my opinion and supported it, but recognized that it was not a provable premise. Certain other posters preferred to fight instead of discuss. To discuss you need to be open to the fact that your opinion may not be correct or you will just fight. My point on the above post was that Seangar in particular has chosen to fight on this matter and not discuss. If that's all you're gonna do post the opinion and move on.

But it seems you only want to discuss the portions you are comfortable with.

Lets start here:

Say for example a cigar Mfg like Torano who makes cigars for others is commissioned to make a "line" for one of the on line guys. Figure the price may come into play there. Lesser value materials used because of the price point demanded.

Are you willing to accept as fact that cigar manufacturers do make house brand and special release cigars for large customers.. typically the on line guys? They also produce "bundles" for the on line guys to make samplers from. Seen and bought them at Cigars International, Rocky Patel vintage 1992 and 1990 bundles for $ 40. Interesting, you can tell the difference by shape when new as the bundles are very pressed. Boxes on the shelf were over a hundred. Hell many cigar brands have little if any manufacturing capacity and are made to "spec" so to speak. If so, to an extent your original point is made in that there may be different/greater or lessor quality in these cigars. However, they are not identical to the normal lines in representation.

Conversely, the concept of "brand" is pretty important to most manufacturers. Their name is on the darn things. To purposely make a product that varies in quality by where you buy it does not make much sense and is hard to believe from a business owners perspective. Different cigar name band etc sure, but not the identical cigar.

This is where your argument, however interesting, seems to lack substantive motivation for the manufacturer or any proof except for opinion on your part.

Maybe the OP just prefers the flavors over humidification provides in most B&M's vs cigars from a home humidor.

Now to the opinion. Seriously and conversely, cigars do not travel well. It may take months for them to acclimate and open up after the traumas of travel. On the flip side, B&M's have a bad rep in terms of stability and correctness of RH. Cigars may be of different ages/provenance and RH storage. If you really want to draw conclusions on potential differences you need to eliminate the potential discrepancies in age, storage conditions and prejudice based upon origin.

Get some cigars at release from both sources. Store them for 3 months in the same place, RH, temperature, etc. Have someone else deband them and put a blank on them A/B, 1/2. Do it for 5 cigars and see what personal observations you can make. Without this commonality the observation on preference is, to me, intriguing but meaningless.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

But it seems you only want to discuss the portions you are comfortable with.

Lets start here:

Say for example a cigar Mfg like Torano who makes cigars for others is commissioned to make a "line" for one of the on line guys. Figure the price may come into play there. Lesser value materials used because of the price point demanded.

Are you willing to accept as fact that cigar manufacturers do make house brand and special release cigars for large customers.. typically the on line guys? They also produce "bundles" for the on line guys to make samplers from. Seen and bought them at Cigars International, Rocky Patel vintage 1992 and 1990 bundles for $ 40. Interesting, you can tell the difference by shape when new as the bundles are very pressed. Boxes on the shelf were over a hundred. Hell many cigar brands have little if any manufacturing capacity and are made to "spec" so to speak. If so, to an extent your original point is made in that there may be different/greater or lessor quality in these cigars. However, they are not identical to the normal lines in representation.

If I understand you correctly I agree with you here.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

Conversely, the concept of "brand" is pretty important to most manufacturers. Their name is on the darn things. To purposely make a product that varies in quality by where you buy it does not make much sense and is hard to believe from a business owners perspective. Different cigar name band etc sure, but not the identical cigar.

Point taken. My response to this was the tomato argument. While the cigar is the same, same leaves from the same areas, etc. I think we can agree that being a plant there will be some variation within the same leaves and that a professional could tell the difference between great and super great.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

This is where your argument, however interesting, seems to lack substantive motivation for the manufacturer or any proof except for opinion on your part.

the motivation I suggested was:
1. a desire to keep the small guy in business
2. The squeaky wheel syndrome, an owner will notice well before an employee.
3. Cost. On those larger orders being selective is not feasible.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

Maybe the OP just prefers the flavors over humidification provides in most B&M's vs cigars from a home humidor.

Now to the opinion. Seriously and conversely, cigars do not travel well. It may take months for them to acclimate and open up after the traumas of travel. On the flip side, B&M's have a bad rep in terms of stability and correctness of RH. Cigars may be of different ages/provenance and RH storage. If you really want to draw conclusions on potential differences you need to eliminate the potential discrepancies in age, storage conditions and prejudice based upon origin.

Get some cigars at release from both sources. Store them for 3 months in the same place, RH, temperature, etc. Have someone else deband them and put a blank on them A/B, 1/2. Do it for your 5 favorite cigars and see what personal observations you can make. Without this commonality the observation on preference is, to me, intriguing but meaningless.

I agree wholeheartedly that I might be 100% wrong on this. As I stated, it was a phenomenon noticed by us and others I've talked to, supported by some statements from workers in Honduras and Dominican Republic. I think I have addressed everything and not avoided anything, If I have it was subconscious and/or unintentional.

Still waiting for some more of the guys from the lounge to comment and support your position. If anyone has and I missed it please excuse me and link me to the posts.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

We've already established that you wouldn't regardless. You've already stated that you WILL NOT entertain the possibility of this topic being anything but what you think. Regardless of the fact that neither side can be proven. You have made it clear that you have your stance and there is not possibility of any other. Your participation at this point is redundant why read any more posts.

See, here's the problem. You have presented not a single lucid argument as to why a manufacturer would degrade the quality of a brand name product for one market stream versus the other.

Not one.

When straws are tossed by others (the dress example) you grasp them as if they're gold, without using any thought whatsoever as to whether they make comparative sense at all.

Market segmentation exists in the cigar industry. Everybody knows that. Manufacturers make lower quality "value" lines all the time. We know they are not the same cigars as the higher end stuff. Everybody knows this but this has absolutely nothing do to with your thesis, that manufacturers have 2 quality lines OF THE EXACT SAME CIGAR for different market segments.

Now, I tossed you a bone. I presented explanations for your observations. Doesn't seem to me that you have given them much consideration. On the other hand, this shouldn't have been a surprise, when presented with a maxim used for 700 years, you make a dismissive comment.

YOU have established exactly nothing here, save perhaps that you are interested in getting to China with your shovel. You have presented no argument of value to change my mind.

Even if this were to be true, couldn't you just let the internet cigars sit in your humidor for a couple months to bring them up to par with what a B&M sells?

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

See, here's the problem. You have presented not a single lucid argument as to why a manufacturer would degrade the quality of a brand name product for one market stream versus the other.

Not one.

When straws are tossed by others (the dress example) you grasp them as if they're gold, without using any thought whatsoever as to whether they make comparative sense at all.

Market segmentation exists in the cigar industry. Everybody knows that. Manufacturers make lower quality "value" lines all the time. We know they are not the same cigars as the higher end stuff. Everybody knows this but this has absolutely nothing do to with your thesis, that manufacturers have 2 quality lines OF THE EXACT SAME CIGAR for different market segments.

Now, I tossed you a bone. I presented explanations for your observations. Doesn't seem to me that you have given them much consideration. On the other hand, this shouldn't have been a surprise, when presented with a maxim used for 700 years, you make a dismissive comment.

YOU have established exactly nothing here, save perhaps that you are interested in getting to China with your shovel. You have presented no argument of value to change my mind.

So I was right the only lucid arguement in your mind is yours and you will never see another point of view even as a possibility. Thanks for confirming that.

[Da Klugs]

Originally Posted by Legend

So I was right the only lucid arguement in your mind is yours and you will never see another point of view even as a possibility. Thanks for confirming that.

Your point of view (opinion) was presented in the first post here. The fact that others don't agree or question the credibility of your assertions has little to do with "seeing another point of view". It's a matter of the assertions lack of traction based upon facts in evidence and our personal experiences. Not an opposing point of view, but the lack of credibility of yours. No one is asserting that internet cigars are better than B&M's. Not agreeing with you is not the same as not being able to see your point of view.

What cigars have you found to be better at the B&M than from the internet? How long did you own them before smoking them and making these judgments? And, did you buy singles on the internet or boxes of them?

[lightning9191]

Originally Posted by Legend

So I was right the only lucid arguement in your mind is yours and you will never see another point of view even as a possibility. Thanks for confirming that.

Ad hominem argument....not a good way to make your point.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

So I was right the only lucid arguement in your mind is yours and you will never see another point of view even as a possibility. Thanks for confirming that.

If you came up with an argument that was convincing of course I could be persuaded to change my mind. I mentioned this already.

What I'm looking for is a series of statements backing up your thesis. Data would be helpful. For example, you suggest a number of times that B&Ms would be better markets for a cigar manufacturer. How so? How many boxes would your B&M buy of a specific cigar .. lets say Rocky Patel Decade torpedo as an example ... compared to CI? Neither you nor I know the prices that Rocky charges CI or B&Ms, but volume discounts are typical in many industries and they are rarely hidden. Why is the B&M a better customer? One would kind of think CI would sell a few more decades than your B&M, no? Wouldn't the manufacturer think their best customer is the one pushing the most boxes .. not necessarily the one with the cushy leather seats and flat screens?

That is a question, answer at leisure.

Remember, if Patel makes 40 bucks a box on 25 boxes your B&M buys, they make 1000 bucks. If they make 5 bucks a box on 3000 boxes CI buys, they make 15 grand. Sales volume often drives profit. Yet, your thesis is that better quality RP Decade torps are going to the B&M because they are better customers. Maybe the total cigar volume sales are wildly in the B&M favor because there are so many of them. Dunno. You have any numbers on sales volumes for big internet retailers v.s combined B&Ms?