stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet - Page 15

yourchoice · 03-04-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shilala

This should turn the whole thread in a direction that doesn't suck, cause Hockey kicks ass.

yourchoice believes this post made the 270 posts before it worth the read.
.
.
.
.
Alright, almost worth the read.

Never saw that clip before. Fantastic!

03-04-2009, 07:49 PM

Great thread like this would rather burn out than fade away.

Ok I'm full of it. I'll drag it on if I gotta be the only one posting. Ha ha ha ha (maniacal igor type laugh)

Starscream · 03-04-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourchoice

yourchoice believes this post made the 270 posts before it worth the read.
.
.
.
.
Alright, almost worth the read.

Never saw that clip before. Fantastic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Great thread like this would rather burn out than fade away.

Ok I'm full of it. I'll drag it on if I gotta be the only one posting. Ha ha ha ha (maniacal igor type laugh)

andysutherland says, "If you say so...".

03-04-2009, 09:53 PM

I was reading a lot of these posts and a few things to point out here on my thinking. A local B&M sells mostly from boxes...I would imagine. Now you know these are not 2nds are quick made cigars...whatever you wish to call them.

Here is a good test...one of these big outfits have these Gurkha deals (we will use Gurkha for this...just cause I see these deals all the time)...pick any of them and for the sake of argument lets say the Gurkha Beast...you can buy a box of these for about $600 + and you see these $30 samplers with a few of them. Buy that sampler and take it to your local B&M if they have Gurkha...the construction is different and the color is way off compared to the Beast out of the box. I would think a local B&M selling from the box...."well, you know they most likely come from the box". These large retailers have good deals...so you get what you pay for.

The point here is that a local B&M that deals direct with..."let's say Gurkha again" they buy 1,2,3,4,5, etc. boxes...that large internet retailer buys maybe 400,000 + cigars from Gurkha (so I am sure deals are made to use a lesser qty. tobacco for these "deal" cigars). If you think about this for one sec. if you owned Gurkha...and the online retailer is busting your B@lls for a way better price so they can make a higher profit...based on the fact that they outsell the little B&M by lightyears....would you use the same tobacco that is used in the "boxes"? That is the question and I am sure with some of the buying power from these places that this might happen...know nothing for fact, but how can the super large online retailer offer a "super-deal...say 75% off deal" from the box, when your local B&M would go out of business doing so.

The other issue is...would the factory going to use all their (A+++ ) tobacco for these suspected (2nd's or deal cigars)? I think not...they would not use this A+++ tobacco for the bundle type, 2nd, quick made, etc. cigars that they get less money for.

That does not make sense...to me at least. I am sure these large places buy tons of boxes from one factory and the factory will make these quick deal singles or samplers to sell at way better prices....they might not be A+++ quality...they maybe only A+ quality. If I owed any cigar factory and have a client with a 3 million dollar a year account....would I say no??? Would you??? to give them a bunch of lesser quality cigars in singles, samples to keep them happy by bring in sales for me and making them happy so they can get the 2nd, bundle, quick made, etc. cigar for cheaper so they can make more money, sell more, but more from me, etc.

When it comes down to it...money is money, we are work our a$$es off to make it to support ourselves, families, etc. it is just that some...not all of these places might cut corners to offers way better deals, sell tons of cigars, make higher profits, etc.

gvarsity · 03-04-2009, 10:55 PM

I think if they were legitimately substituting another substandard product and you could prove it you would have one hell of a lawsuit on your hands. I also think most cigar manufacturers aggressively protect their brands and would be unlikely to undercut the quality of their own product this way. Cigars more so than many products rely heavily on customer loyalty and repeat business and this is independent of where they buy their cigars. Do you think they would really risk alienating there regular customers this way? I don't think so.

I suspect this perceived difference is just that varied perception on the part of consumers. It has never occurred to me to take my from the internet cigars into the B&M and compare side by side but I have bought enough cigars in both places that if there was a significant difference I think I would notice. Regardless most manufacturers match color by the box even in the same blend so that if you did take to legit cigars from two boxes they may not match color identically. Cigars are a natural product with natural variation from leaf to leaf. As was already mentioned much of the difference is likely to be from variations in storage condition if not just the natural variation in the cigars themselves.

In the example of gurkha and many other retailers there is not that much A+++++ quality leaf around period and most of their lines have none of it but that is not some conspiracy to give one retailer better quality than another it's that they just send out a bunch of PR BS about how special the wrapper is for every freaking cigar. For the most part you pay more either for better tobacco and blenders and some you pay for marketing and packaging and for some you pay for all of the above plus a premium for scarcity same as any other industry.

I don't think they are creating two separate lines one for online retailers and one for everyone else. The most I could see is sending one batch to a set of lesser skilled rollers to crank out for the online retailers and the rest going to more experienced rollers. That still might not be a conspiracy that could very well just be a manufacturing reality. Have one really big order it goes to the largest pool of workers (lowest skilled) and the others go to higher skill workers. Still I even doubt that is the case.

As for the whole 75% off thing that is also marketing. MSRP for all but the most scarce cigars is a joke. The real difference is in not paying for retail space, knowledgeable employees, buying in bulk and not having to pass on state taxes take all that into account from the real retail price which is already well below MSRP and there is your 75% off. You see a stick in a B&M at MSRP they are making a profit after having had to pay all of those other costs that internet retailers don't. Internet retailers can take even a smaller profit margin if necessary because of volume. Just my

icehog3 · 03-05-2009, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andysutherland

andysutherland loves the movie Clerks!

My love for you is like a truck, Berserker!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomHagen

Often times...
I just wish Jules Winnfield would give his commentary on EVERYTHING!

I also like Dave Winfield...

Saw Winfield hit the greatest home run I have ever witnessed live in Anaheim in 1986 when he was a Yankee.

SeanGAR · 03-05-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiokicigars

If you think about this for one sec. if you owned Gurkha...and the online retailer is busting your B@lls for a way better price so they can make a higher profit...based on the fact that they outsell the little B&M by lightyears....would you use the same tobacco that is used in the "boxes"?

Honestly, your argument makes no sense.

You suggest that a manufacturer would give lower quality product to their best customers (based on sales volume).

You also ignore the economy of scale and the fact that price often is related to scale of purchase. When my brother was the purchaser for one of the largest car rental places in Canada, he would negotiate car prices with the big three. When you're buying thousands of cars at a time, you get a much better price. You think the manufacturer sold them second quality cars because they negotiated a lower net cost?

And if seconds are really seconds, they are the same cigar as the premium but with some minor imperfection. There is no second rate stack of tobacco just for these cigars. They are regular cigars that fail some QC parameter. If they are not this, they are not seconds.

Smokin Gator · 03-05-2009, 05:32 AM

Someone please tell me if I am wrong... I have never been to any of the large cigar factories, but have seen DVDs/documentaries on them.

From what I have seen the rollers make huge quantities of cigar x. They then go through a QC process and the ones that are going to make it get banded and boxed. Then those boxes go into cases and then off to an aging room. When they are ready they are released to the market.

When an order is filled they are not making the cigars right then. They are filling it out of a warehouse. For the above theory to be plausible the planning for the first and second tier cigars would have to take place 1-5 years out. To be able to correctly forecast the demand and make the correct amount of each stick would be one heck of a feat.

SeanGAR · 03-05-2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Gator

When an order is filled they are not making the cars would have to take place 1-5 years out. To be able to correctly forecast the demand and make the correct amount of each stick would be one heck of a feat.

Now don't you be starting with the logic, OK? It has no place in this discussion.

Starscream · 03-05-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Now don't you be starting with the logic, OK? It has no place in this discussion.

thebiglebowski · 03-05-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiokicigars

...we will use Gurkha for this...

no, not gurkha. anything but THAT!

D_A · 03-05-2009, 07:35 AM

It's all clear now. The Gurkha in this pic obviously came from the internet, not a B&M.

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showpo...19&postcount=8

03-05-2009, 08:07 AM

The one thing that all of the folks on the "it could never be" side continue to say which I've tried to correct. And yes if you continue to think this way then it doesn't make sense and you mock. But I'm not saying substandard. Seconds. Nothing significant. Just noticeable. When you lose that part of your arguement which you hold on to so tightly, your logic fails and the only arguement you have left is cost which is ridiculous. Adding 1 variable to the already many is minimal.

Unless you got something else.

I'll wait.

03-05-2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

The one thing that all of the folks on the "it could never be" side continue to say which I've tried to correct. And yes if you continue to think this way then it doesn't make sense and you mock. But I'm not saying substandard. Seconds. Nothing significant. Just noticeable. When you lose that part of your arguement which you hold on to so tightly, your logic fails and the only arguement you have left is cost which is ridiculous. Adding 1 variable to the already many is minimal.

Unless you got something else.

I'll wait.

Who said that part of the argument was lost?

14holestogie · 03-05-2009, 08:13 AM

14holestogie wishes this thread would die, die, die.

03-05-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14holestogie

14holestogie wishes this thread would die, die, die.

And I suppose you don't slow down to look at car wrecks.

14holestogie · 03-05-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahc4353

And I suppose you don't slow down to look at car wrecks.

Yeah, that's why this one should end. The ambulances should've been here long ago.

SeanGAR · 03-05-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

The one thing that all of the folks on the "it could never be" side continue to say which I've tried to correct. And yes if you continue to think this way then it doesn't make sense and you mock. But I'm not saying substandard. Seconds. Nothing significant. Just noticeable. When you lose that part of your arguement which you hold on to so tightly, your logic fails and the only arguement you have left is cost which is ridiculous. Adding 1 variable to the already many is minimal.

Unless you got something else.

I'll wait.

Your question has been answered.

Difference, if any, is due to age.

Before you go there, the earth is round.

Any other questions we can help you with today?

MajorCaptSilly · 03-05-2009, 08:26 AM

Al called me Muffin.

MCS

rizzle · 03-05-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14holestogie

We have a winner! Tell him what he's won!

rizzle says..

Got a winner! What's your name? Come on down and get your free butter dish!!

03-04-2009, 07:49 PM	#282
Legend Guest Posts: n/a	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet Great thread like this would rather burn out than fade away. Ok I'm full of it. I'll drag it on if I gotta be the only one posting. Ha ha ha ha (maniacal igor type laugh)

03-04-2009, 09:53 PM	#284
kiokicigars Guest Posts: n/a	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet I was reading a lot of these posts and a few things to point out here on my thinking. A local B&M sells mostly from boxes...I would imagine. Now you know these are not 2nds are quick made cigars...whatever you wish to call them. Here is a good test...one of these big outfits have these Gurkha deals (we will use Gurkha for this...just cause I see these deals all the time)...pick any of them and for the sake of argument lets say the Gurkha Beast...you can buy a box of these for about $600 + and you see these $30 samplers with a few of them. Buy that sampler and take it to your local B&M if they have Gurkha...the construction is different and the color is way off compared to the Beast out of the box. I would think a local B&M selling from the box...."well, you know they most likely come from the box". These large retailers have good deals...so you get what you pay for. The point here is that a local B&M that deals direct with..."let's say Gurkha again" they buy 1,2,3,4,5, etc. boxes...that large internet retailer buys maybe 400,000 + cigars from Gurkha (so I am sure deals are made to use a lesser qty. tobacco for these "deal" cigars). If you think about this for one sec. if you owned Gurkha...and the online retailer is busting your B@lls for a way better price so they can make a higher profit...based on the fact that they outsell the little B&M by lightyears....would you use the same tobacco that is used in the "boxes"? That is the question and I am sure with some of the buying power from these places that this might happen...know nothing for fact, but how can the super large online retailer offer a "super-deal...say 75% off deal" from the box, when your local B&M would go out of business doing so. The other issue is...would the factory going to use all their (A+++ ) tobacco for these suspected (2nd's or deal cigars)? I think not...they would not use this A+++ tobacco for the bundle type, 2nd, quick made, etc. cigars that they get less money for. That does not make sense...to me at least. I am sure these large places buy tons of boxes from one factory and the factory will make these quick deal singles or samplers to sell at way better prices....they might not be A+++ quality...they maybe only A+ quality. If I owed any cigar factory and have a client with a 3 million dollar a year account....would I say no??? Would you??? to give them a bunch of lesser quality cigars in singles, samples to keep them happy by bring in sales for me and making them happy so they can get the 2nd, bundle, quick made, etc. cigar for cheaper so they can make more money, sell more, but more from me, etc. When it comes down to it...money is money, we are work our a$$es off to make it to support ourselves, families, etc. it is just that some...not all of these places might cut corners to offers way better deals, sell tons of cigars, make higher profits, etc. Last edited by kiokicigars; 03-04-2009 at 09:58 PM. Reason: add text

03-04-2009, 10:55 PM	#285
gvarsity still crazy Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 621 Trading: (15)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet I think if they were legitimately substituting another substandard product and you could prove it you would have one hell of a lawsuit on your hands. I also think most cigar manufacturers aggressively protect their brands and would be unlikely to undercut the quality of their own product this way. Cigars more so than many products rely heavily on customer loyalty and repeat business and this is independent of where they buy their cigars. Do you think they would really risk alienating there regular customers this way? I don't think so. I suspect this perceived difference is just that varied perception on the part of consumers. It has never occurred to me to take my from the internet cigars into the B&M and compare side by side but I have bought enough cigars in both places that if there was a significant difference I think I would notice. Regardless most manufacturers match color by the box even in the same blend so that if you did take to legit cigars from two boxes they may not match color identically. Cigars are a natural product with natural variation from leaf to leaf. As was already mentioned much of the difference is likely to be from variations in storage condition if not just the natural variation in the cigars themselves. In the example of gurkha and many other retailers there is not that much A+++++ quality leaf around period and most of their lines have none of it but that is not some conspiracy to give one retailer better quality than another it's that they just send out a bunch of PR BS about how special the wrapper is for every freaking cigar. For the most part you pay more either for better tobacco and blenders and some you pay for marketing and packaging and for some you pay for all of the above plus a premium for scarcity same as any other industry. I don't think they are creating two separate lines one for online retailers and one for everyone else. The most I could see is sending one batch to a set of lesser skilled rollers to crank out for the online retailers and the rest going to more experienced rollers. That still might not be a conspiracy that could very well just be a manufacturing reality. Have one really big order it goes to the largest pool of workers (lowest skilled) and the others go to higher skill workers. Still I even doubt that is the case. As for the whole 75% off thing that is also marketing. MSRP for all but the most scarce cigars is a joke. The real difference is in not paying for retail space, knowledgeable employees, buying in bulk and not having to pass on state taxes take all that into account from the real retail price which is already well below MSRP and there is your 75% off. You see a stick in a B&M at MSRP they are making a profit after having had to pay all of those other costs that internet retailers don't. Internet retailers can take even a smaller profit margin if necessary because of volume. Just my Last edited by gvarsity; 03-04-2009 at 11:00 PM.

03-05-2009, 05:32 AM	#288
Smokin Gator Just plain insane! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: The Swamp Posts: 6,237 Trading: (106)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet Someone please tell me if I am wrong... I have never been to any of the large cigar factories, but have seen DVDs/documentaries on them. From what I have seen the rollers make huge quantities of cigar x. They then go through a QC process and the ones that are going to make it get banded and boxed. Then those boxes go into cases and then off to an aging room. When they are ready they are released to the market. When an order is filled they are not making the cigars right then. They are filling it out of a warehouse. For the above theory to be plausible the planning for the first and second tier cigars would have to take place 1-5 years out. To be able to correctly forecast the demand and make the correct amount of each stick would be one heck of a feat. __________________ Check out the Cigar Asylum Newbie Sampler Trade

03-05-2009, 07:35 AM	#292
D_A Dave's not here Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: David Location: NC Posts: 272 Trading: (7)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet It's all clear now. The Gurkha in this pic obviously came from the internet, not a B&M. http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showpo...19&postcount=8

03-05-2009, 08:07 AM	#293
Legend Guest Posts: n/a	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet The one thing that all of the folks on the "it could never be" side continue to say which I've tried to correct. And yes if you continue to think this way then it doesn't make sense and you mock. But I'm not saying substandard. Seconds. Nothing significant. Just noticeable. When you lose that part of your arguement which you hold on to so tightly, your logic fails and the only arguement you have left is cost which is ridiculous. Adding 1 variable to the already many is minimal. Unless you got something else. I'll wait.

03-05-2009, 08:13 AM	#295
14holestogie Serial banter killer Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Clintonville, WI Posts: 4,341 Trading: (52)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet 14holestogie wishes this thread would die, die, die. __________________ *I loves me a Parti*

03-05-2009, 08:26 AM	#299
MajorCaptSilly Sklee Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Scott Location: Mishawaka, IN Posts: 2,523 Trading: (30)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet Al called me Muffin. MCS __________________ Pillsbury, Minneapolis, Prince, Spoon Bridge and Cherry, coinkydink?