Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.

[Kreth]

Originally Posted by Volt

I know it's a beat to death subject, but I can't say I find a ton of value as some do in a B&M. The 3 closest "cigar" stores are just that. Some accessories, moderate to over priced sticks, and none of the amenities that others seem to enjoy.

My local B&M is pretty much the same. Limited selection, high prices (I think an RP Vintage 90 was $10), and nothing in terms of accessories aside from a $2 cutter. I've heard that the owner keeps the place as a tax write-off.

[BengalMan]

While I don't know the first thing about this situation and will not comment on it, but I will shed some light on the situation in general, coming from someone that's in the industry.

Protecting the price of our product is done for various reasons. The one that has already been mentioned is, deeply discounting a cigar line, or any other line at that, does de-value the brand. Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

Cigar shops are a culture in themselves. A majority of the brands that have "brand name recognition" were built in B&M's. They have been, and will continue to be the grassroots, lifeblood of this industry. They provide a place where customers can socialize, relax, and get away from the everyday troubles of life, and have a cigar with someone that they may have never met before, but share a close bond with. That bond is the cigar. When you have an online shop that deeply discounts products BELOW MSRP, if takes away from the places that put most of these brands where they are today. Some brands may not care about that, but I know we do.

The problem that lies in this whole situation is the state taxes and OTP. None of it is regulated, and it keeps going up. In Michigan for instance, it's 32% and they're talking about doubling it to a whopping 64%. Now, a Michigan B&M can do nothing but pay the state that tax and in turn roll it over to the consumer. What the people passing this legislation don't understand, is that if they make it too high, people will do just what some of you have said, stop buying at the B&M's and buy online, because when you ship out of state, you don't have to pay the state (that is already changing though, but that's a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC). Thus resulting in hurting the local economies even more because more local business will close and more people will be out of work.

In the end, please support your local B&M's. Even if it's only a stick a week, or a few here and there. You'd be supprised how far those few additional sticks can go for them. It may be the difference in being able to pay their electric bill without going into the hole that month. The B&M's helped build the indusry that we all love so much, the least we could do is show our support to them in these times of the economic downturn. These are all people that help keep your local economy alive. So next time your about to order that 5er online, think, "maybe this time, I'll go to my local B&M, pick up 3-5 cigars, smoke one and have a chat with the customers and owner about the hobby I love so much."

Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work.

[elderboy02]

Nice post Ian

[Volt]

Originally Posted by BengalMan

......Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work.

I was hoping you would chime in as you have the inside look. With all you said, some I agree with, some I'm not sold on just yet.... I would ask/comment that maybe in days of olde when all there was were the B&M's, I can see where they could have held a higher level of importance with availability, knowledge, etc.

In my case of 2 years of smoking cigars and what's around me.

a) Small walk in humi (say triple walk in closet size), the guy there barely speaks English, and is mostly a cigarette shop.

b) Nice size selection, nice discounts on singles, no real knowledge of cigars by the workers. Some accessories.

c) Small walk in humi, coffee bar, some polite help, some not so polite.

d) Large selection, small smoking lounge, friendly, good looking college help (but not knowledgeable on cigars), or crabby help I will not deal with.

Glad you brought up Bose, I was going to add it to my original post but wasn't aware if many knew their pricing. I can hear the diff in a Bose Acustimass system and a low end Pioneer. I have no issues paying for better quality items as I will pay more for a tastier smoke than a yard gar.

I can't rationalize though paying more for a cigar selling locally at $9.25 a Monte White Rothschild or $4.75 ea on a cbid auction. The taxes here just aren't that high to explain that much increase. Exact same cigar, 1/2 the price. Quality doesn't change and there is nor real value gained by supporting a brick and mortar.

Interesting topic.
I agree there are those who are name oriented (my ex brother in law is one), all they care is the name others will see on said product. I on the other hand only require X value for X $$$ paid.

[Volusianator]

Originally Posted by Volt

Quality doesn't change and there is nor real value gained by supporting a brick and mortar.

Remember that the next time you want to go to a lounge with a bunch of buddies, or by yourself to have a smoke and the shop is out of business because nobody saw the "value" in spending more at a B&M. I buy my fair share of cigars online, just like everyone else, but I also buy boxes from my local from time to time to do my part to help keep his doors open. I value his business, I value his leather chairs, I value his smoke eaters, I value the drinks I can get there, I value his service.

[Volt]

You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, out of my choices only one really has a smoking lounge and the attitude there is not something I want to put up with to smoke there. I like a bourbon with my sticks and as most of my friends don't smoke cigars.... you see where I am going. As I stated, a B&M im most senses does not serve me (YMMV) any real service other than a spur of the moment buy... Even then not much due to pricing.

Originally Posted by Volusianator

Remember that the next time you want to go to a lounge with a bunch of buddies, or by yourself to have a smoke and the shop is out of business because nobody saw the "value" in spending more at a B&M. I buy my fair share of cigars online, just like everyone else, but I also buy boxes from my local from time to time to do my part to help keep his doors open. I value his business, I value his leather chairs, I value his smoke eaters, I value the drinks I can get there, I value his service.

[Volusianator]

Originally Posted by Volt

You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, out of my choices only one really has a smoking lounge and the attitude there is not something I want to put up with to smoke there. As I stated, a B&M im most senses does not serve me (YMMV) any real service other than a spur of the moment buy... Even then not much due to pricing.

I agree that I only read your one reply regarding the B&M's, however you said there's no value in supporting a Brick & Mortar. If you would've said there's no value in supporting "your local" B&M, then I would possibly understand if you have a bad shop. But to make a blanket statement as you did, I can't agree with that.

[Yazzie]

Originally Posted by Volt

You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, out of my choices only one really has a smoking lounge and the attitude there is not something I want to put up with to smoke there. I like a bourbon with my sticks and as most of my friends don't smoke cigars.... you see where I am going. As I stated, a B&M im most senses does not serve me (YMMV) any real service other than a spur of the moment buy... Even then not much due to pricing.

[TripleF]

Originally Posted by BengalMan

While I don't know the first thing about this situation and will not comment on it, but I will shed some light on the situation in general, coming from someone that's in the industry.

Protecting the price of our product is done for various reasons. The one that has already been mentioned is, deeply discounting a cigar line, or any other line at that, does de-value the brand. Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

Cigar shops are a culture in themselves. A majority of the brands that have "brand name recognition" were built in B&M's. They have been, and will continue to be the grassroots, lifeblood of this industry. They provide a place where customers can socialize, relax, and get away from the everyday troubles of life, and have a cigar with someone that they may have never met before, but share a close bond with. That bond is the cigar. When you have an online shop that deeply discounts products BELOW MSRP, if takes away from the places that put most of these brands where they are today. Some brands may not care about that, but I know we do.

The problem that lies in this whole situation is the state taxes and OTP. None of it is regulated, and it keeps going up. In Michigan for instance, it's 32% and they're talking about doubling it to a whopping 64%. Now, a Michigan B&M can do nothing but pay the state that tax and in turn roll it over to the consumer. What the people passing this legislation don't understand, is that if they make it too high, people will do just what some of you have said, stop buying at the B&M's and buy online, because when you ship out of state, you don't have to pay the state (that is already changing though, but that's a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC). Thus resulting in hurting the local economies even more because more local business will close and more people will be out of work.

In the end, please support your local B&M's. Even if it's only a stick a week, or a few here and there. You'd be supprised how far those few additional sticks can go for them. It may be the difference in being able to pay their electric bill without going into the hole that month. The B&M's helped build the indusry that we all love so much, the least we could do is show our support to them in these times of the economic downturn. These are all people that help keep your local economy alive. So next time your about to order that 5er online, think, "maybe this time, I'll go to my local B&M, pick up 3-5 cigars, smoke one and have a chat with the customers and owner about the hobby I love so much."

Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work.

Here! Here!

Originally Posted by BengalMan

Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

I have to argue this. Bose is built upon reputation for high quality. The reduction of the price might marginally affect the impressions of that quality, but the quality itself will stand alone. In your scenario above, you would likely sell out every single piece you brought in quickly, every time, and the brand name would not suffer.

Of course, when applying the same thoughts to cigars, it holds much more merit. The taste of a cigar is very subjective (if you want proof, look at the reviews in the Silound's dog rocket thread on the NC review board). People often say that cigars are better when smoked at Herfs. The impression that a cigar is better due to price, emotional state when smoking, etc. has some serious validity. But I wouldn't say it was the defining aspect of makes a good cigar.

Just my $.02, carry on...

[Yazzie]

Nothing wrong with your arguments for those who frequent a B&M or use their Services. Hell if I felt that way then I would not have made the statement I made.

Different strokes for different folks. I have 2 good B&M's in my area and have bone and bought sticks at both. However I don't hang out there, and the few times I've asked if they would price match on a box for VSG's or Oliva V's they said they couldn't come close....So for me I buy online at much cheaper prices and am happy for it. Now if I was one who hung out at a B&M daily and looked at it as a place to smoke/socialize, etc... then maybe I would feel differently...

When you shop for an airplane flight, or a trip, or a hotel room, do you always buy from one place or one price or do you shop around a bit

[Silound]

Originally Posted by Drat

I have to argue this. Bose is built upon reputation for high quality. The reduction of the price might marginally affect the impressions of that quality, but the quality itself will stand alone. In your scenario above, you would likely sell out every single piece you brought in quickly, every time, and the brand name would not suffer.

Of course, when applying the same thoughts to cigars, it holds much more merit. The taste of a cigar is very subjective (if you want proof, look at the reviews in the Silound's dog rocket thread on the NC review board). People often say that cigars are better when smoked at Herfs. The impression that a cigar is better due to price, emotional state when smoking, etc. has some serious validity. But I wouldn't say it was the defining aspect of makes a good cigar.

Just my $.02, carry on...

Holy crap, I got a cross comment about that thread!


I agree about quality standing on it's own, and I agree that B&M's need support. But not everyone looks at quality. A HUGE number of shoppers (for cigars especially) buy high dollar assuming that it's quality because of the price. If a car costs 100,000 then it has to be a better vehicle than the one that costs 30,000 to them.

On the flip side, quality can command price, simply because there are people out there who will buy quality just for quality, regardless of the price.

Really it's about knowing your market demographic, and in a luxury market, it's all about those two extremes.

[neoflex]

I used to frequent and support my local B&Ms back in NY but since moving I have been unable to find a B&M that I feel comfortable with or happy enough with to call home. Problem I have been having is I either get to choose from Great selection but snotty stuck up staff or great staff but a Mehh selection of smokes most of which are not part of my rotation and than their is the other where their humidor conditions are amazingly bad for the name backing of the place but they too have mostly an unwelcoming staff. So now I find myself buying more from online retailers but do miss being able to head down to my local and buy a handful of smokes and get lost there for 4-6 hours. I have always known I can get the same smokes online for much cheaper but when I had a great local I never did mind paying $2-$4 more per stick because in my mind it was worth it.

[yourchoice]

Kind of off subject but on topic...

My local B&M has an area to smoke, but you have to be a member and pay a significant membership fee to sit and smoke there. The balance of their floor plan consists of their humidor (quite nice), accessory displays and a cash register. Smoking there would generally be uncomfortable. Do I still patronize them? Yes. Do I feel guilty about buying on-line? No. Would I buy more (a higher percentage of my purchases) if they had a chair to sit in and a TV to catch a little bit of a game? You bet!

What's my point? I'm not sure. I guess every B&M is different and "deserves" patronage based on their customer service and amenities. When I was in Orlando and visited Corona cigar, I bought their cigars, drank their beer and enjoyed myself immensely. If all B&M's were like that I think we'd all feel more obligation to buy more from them.

[Commander Quan]

Perhaps a little off topic but...

Right now most of the shops that I visit where I live, in Ohio are changing the way they do business. I am seeing the opening of "private lounges" in shops that before the smoking ban passed had an area to smoke that was available for free. The membership fees vary but most have a monthly fee and a daily fee. The daily fee ranges from $5-$10. I have quit smoking there because of this extra expense and since I am not there as often I spend about 1/4 of the money that I used to on their cigars.

So what are my options? I either drive to the shop and pay $1-$2 or possibly more per cigar to support a local business that in my mind is charging people for a service that they offered for free 2 years ago
or
buy online and get an equal product for less?

I guess my loyalty to my local shops went away when they decide to try to make a quick buck off their regulars instead of using the smoking ban as an opportunity to welcome smokers and sell more product