Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?

[shilala]

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by shilala

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.

Originally Posted by shilala

Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not.

Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...

Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case.

[Gophernut]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...for-dirty-play
From this past season. Maybe there is something to this story. I understand that you go after the "weak link" but if you're intentionally trying to hurt a player, than it's just dirty. Don't care if you get paid for it or not. Sticker, steak, bounty, ice cream cone, whatever. You shouldn't play to do others harm.

Originally Posted by shilala

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.

Originally Posted by shilala

Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case.

Just meant we had to hear him talk more.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Wanger

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.



Just meant we had to hear him talk more.

I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.

On the high school level, kids have no clue how to avoid wrecking another kid for life. One chop block or low hit on a planted foot can ruin someone forever. They don't get that. They don't have any idea what kind of hits can (and do) cause ankles and knees to get blown out. They spear and jam their own necks because they think their gear is armor and they're immortal. My point wasn't that they know HOW to cause a huge injury on purpose, it's that they don't know how to AVOID causing a huge injury.
They'll also throw their bodies around with wreckless abandon because everyone is immortal when they're that age.

How painful is it that Michael Irvin ended up in a postgame show?

Originally Posted by shilala

I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.

It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Wanger

It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.

See, I thought we agreed.
I illustrated that extra hard shot when a receiver comes across the middle for a specific reason. It doesn't need to be there any more than a strategy that specifically targets knocking a player out of the game, but it's also one in the same, more or less. Very often those wide receivers get helped off the field and suffer bruised ribs, etc. It's a planned and accepted head-hunting strategy that's played out the whole game, every game.
While I agree the whole "bounty" thing is infantile and wreckless, it's a part of the game that's always been and will always be there.
The breakdown here is that some nipplehead shot his mouth off and brought locker room business out in the open, which is a major no-no. They put both the players, coaches and NFL in peril. If someone is to lose their career, I think it should be the guy that shot his mouth off, not the coach who's taking the fall for it (when he clearly isn't the guy responsible for running the pool).

I think if there's one thing you and I disagree on, it's "the integrity...of the sport". That went out the window when big money rolled into town. Major League Baseball suffers from the same affliction. It's probably the most sickening in the NBA where Kobe Bryant runs the league.
At some point money became far more important than integrity. Unfortunately some of this is bleeding downhill to college and high school, but fortunately there are still a lot of coaches in small markets at those levels that still use sports as a tool to build quaility men, rather than to fill the coffers with cash.

Great points and awesome discussion, by the way. You're making me rethink all this real hard, brother.