Freezing

wayner123 · 12-30-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGD.

You don't want to freeze because you can taste a difference? Hold on - have to stop laughing so I can finish typing. Okay - I will send three cigars to anyone and dare that person to tell me which ones were frozen. I have done this before and no one could tell with certainty. In addition - see the note before this one - so yeah, too late.

I respect your opinions and experience greatly. However, I know of a good number of PSHC members that may disagree with you on the above.

Drazzil · 12-30-2008, 02:33 PM

RGD: One real quick point. As you said the chances are that the cigar, or the tobacco has been frozen at least once in its journey to your humidor The greater likelyhood is that it has been frozen perhaps multiple times...

Now here comes the sticky point. If the tobacco has been frozen, wouldn't the water crystals forming in the tobacco do something to displace the oils and change the balance of the taste of the tobacco? Water and oil don't mix, and I am guessing that freezing probabally does change the taste of tobacco to some extent, but that we will probabally never know. My line of reasoning is below.

It would be well nigh impossible to prove or disprove your point that the taste of a cigar changes when it's frozen, as ALL tobacco has been frozen a number of times... I would guess the tobacco farmers, cigar factory, distributor and wholesaler would all want to protect their intrests

This then leads to the conclusion that it would indeed take a developed palate to tell the difference between the fifth and sixth freezings and thereby unless you roll a cigar fresh off the fields, you will never be able to tell the difference between fresh tobacco and frozen, because it's all been frozen.

I dunno, if anyone can spot a hole in my logic, they are free to correct me.

RGD. · 12-30-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drazzil

RGD: One real quick point. As you said the chances are that the cigar, or the tobacco has been frozen at least once in its journey to your humidor The greater likelyhood is that it has been frozen perhaps multiple times...

Now here comes the sticky point. If the tobacco has been frozen, wouldn't the water crystals forming in the tobacco do something to displace the oils and change the balance of the taste of the tobacco? Water and oil don't mix, and I am guessing that freezing probabally does change the taste of tobacco to some extent, but that we will probabally never know. My line of reasoning is below.

It would be well nigh impossible to prove or disprove your point that the taste of a cigar changes when it's frozen, as ALL tobacco has been frozen a number of times... I would guess the tobacco farmers, cigar factory, distributor and wholesaler would all want to protect their intrests

This then leads to the conclusion that it would indeed take a developed palate to tell the difference between the fifth and sixth freezings and thereby unless you roll a cigar fresh off the fields, you will never be able to tell the difference between fresh tobacco and frozen, because it's all been frozen.

I dunno, if anyone can spot a hole in my logic, they are free to correct me.

Exactly -

Ron

RGD. · 12-30-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayner123

I respect your opinions and experience greatly. However, I know of a good number of PSHC members that may disagree with you on the above.

It's good to disagree and have varying opinions - be a boring world with out.

This subject comes up frequently and has done so for years. Several years ago I gave four friends three cigars each who stated without a doubt they could pick out the frozen smokes.

I sent person #
1) 3 non-frozen
2) 3 all frozen
3) 2 frozen and 1 non-frozen
4) 1 frozen and 2 non-frozen

Person #
1) said 2 were frozen when none were frozen
2) said 1 was frozen although all were frozen
3) said 1 was frozen and selected a correct one
4) said 1 was frozen and selected a non-frozen one

The cigars were Fuente 8-9-8, readily available damn near anywhere - without the labels. I did not have/smoke Cubans at the time - hence the use of Fuente's.

Soooo - you know, what can I say. Be glad to repeat my non-scientific study.
Of course I'm sure that there are guys out there who can discern 7 year old burnt Madagascar vanilla with a hint of German truffle - I just don't know any of them.

Ron

wayner123 · 12-31-2008, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGD.

It's good to disagree and have varying opinions - be a boring world with out.

This subject comes up frequently and has done so for years. Several years ago I gave four friends three cigars each who stated without a doubt they could pick out the frozen smokes.

I sent person #
1) 3 non-frozen
2) 3 all frozen
3) 2 frozen and 1 non-frozen
4) 1 frozen and 2 non-frozen

Person #
1) said 2 were frozen when none were frozen
2) said 1 was frozen although all were frozen
3) said 1 was frozen and selected a correct one
4) said 1 was frozen and selected a non-frozen one

The cigars were Fuente 8-9-8, readily available damn near anywhere - without the labels. I did not have/smoke Cubans at the time - hence the use of Fuente's.

Soooo - you know, what can I say. Be glad to repeat my non-scientific study.
Of course I'm sure that there are guys out there who can discern 7 year old burnt Madagascar vanilla with a hint of German truffle - I just don't know any of them.

Ron

That sounds like the results I would expect. Were those friends familiar with Fuente 8-9-8 enough to have a baseline to judge? And did they know the cigar in question before the test?

I am not discrediting your testing or anything like that, I truly want to know.

Buena Fortuna · 12-31-2008, 08:53 AM

To freeze or not to freeze...read the facts and decide for yourself.

Microscopic Lasioderma Serricorne (Tobacco Beetle) eggs exist in tobacco and foods alike. While Tobacco Beetles can be found in environments exceeding 65˚F, they typically only hatch and mate in temperature conditions of 68-73˚F, with high humidity > 60%.

Of the four stages the beetle grows in and out of (egg, larva, pupa, adult), the Pupa stage is undoubtedly the most devastating for smokers. Emerging from the egg, approximately six to ten days after the temperature triggers their birth; the larvae live and feed off of your cigars, for roughly five to ten weeks. They prefer to reside in dark or dimly lit cracks, nooks and crevices but become active and fly readily in bright, open areas, probably in an attempt to find refuge. They are most active at dusk and will continue activity through the night. Adults do not feed, but will drink liquids.

The complete life cycle takes 26 days at 98°F and 120 days at 68°F. L. Serricorne do not do well in the cold, adults die within 6 days at 39°F, and eggs survive 5 days at 32-41°F. Larvae become dormant and may hibernate below 60° F. Adults are strong fliers, and are particularly active in subdued light at temperatures above 65° F. Adults will cease all flying activity at 55°F. Temperatures of 1˚F or lower will crack the larvae and kill both eggs and adults. Heating small quantities of infested material in an oven (190°F for one hour, 120°F for 16 to 24 hours) also is effective.

References
• Baur FJ. 1991. Chemical methods to control insect pests of processed foods. pp. 427-440. In J. R. Gorham (ed.), Ecology and Management of Food-Industry Pests. FDA Technical Bulletin 4.
• Buss LJ, Fasulo TR. (2006). Stored Product Pests. UF/IFAS. SW 185. CD-ROM.
• Chuman T, Mochizuki K, Mori M, Kohno M, Kato K, Noguchi M. 1985. Lasioderma chemistry, Sex pheromone of cigarette beetle (Lasioderma serricorne F.). Journal of Chemical Ecology 11: 417-434.
• Granovsky TA. Stored product pests. pp. 635-728. In D. Moreland (ed.), Handbook of Pest Control (by A. Mallis), Eighth Edition. Mallis Handbook and Technical Training Co.
• Fasulo TR. (2002). German Cockroach and Stored Product Pests. Bug Tutorials. University of Florida/IFAS. CD-ROM. SW 165.
• Fasulo TR, Kern W, Koehler PG, Short DE. (2005). Pests In and Around the Home. Version 2.0. University of Florida/IFAS. CD-ROM. SW 126.
• Hill DS. 1990. Pests of stored products and their control. CRC Press, Boca Raton. 274 pp.
• Howe RW. 1957. A laboratory study of the cigarette beetle, Lasioderma serricorne (F.)(Col., Anobiidae) with a critical review of the literature on its biology. Bulletin of Entomological Research 48: 9-56.
• Krischik V, Burkholder W. 1995. Stored-product insects and biological control agents. pp. 85-102. In Krischik, V., G. Cuperus, and D. Galiart (eds.) Stored product management. Oklahoma Cooperative Extension Service Circular Number E-912.
• Phillips TW. 1994. Pheromones of stored-product insects: current status and future perspectives. pp. 479-486. In E. Highley, E. J. Wright, H. J. Banks and B. R. Champ (eds.), Proceedings of the 6th International Working Conference on Stored-product Protection, Vol. 1. CAB International, Wallingford, U.K.
• Phillips TW, Berberet RC, Cuperus GW. 2000. Postharvest integrated pest management, pp. 2690-2701. In F. J. Francis (ed.), The Wiley Encyclopedia of Food Science Technology, 2nd Edition. John Wiley and Sons, New York.
• Phillips TW, Cogan PM, Fadamiro HY. 2000. Pheromones, pp. 273-302. In B. Subramanyam & D. W. Hagstrum (eds.), Alternatives to pesticides in stored-product IPM. Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston.
• United States Department of Agriculture. 1980. Stored-grain insects. USDA-ARS Agriculture Handbook Number 500, 57 pp.

RGD. · 12-31-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayner123

That sounds like the results I would expect. Were those friends familiar with Fuente 8-9-8 enough to have a baseline to judge? And did they know the cigar in question before the test?

I am not discrediting your testing or anything like that, I truly want to know.

No they did not know exactly what cigar they were smoking as I removed the bands - but since it was a popular cigar with my group they were not un-familiar with them. I don't know if it would have mattered or not - guess if they had known which one it was they could have gotten more to compare to. On the other hand I guess my view is that if someone says they can tell a frozen cigar verse a non one - really shouldn't matter.

A yes it may not have been entirely on the up and up to send three non-frozen and three all frozen samples - but it sure was fun to see the results -

Honestly I really believe it's the knowledge of knowing that they were frozen that taints the perspective of it all.

Ron

12-30-2008, 02:33 PM	#2
Drazzil Adjusting to the Life Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: David Location: Boozetown Posts: 355 Trading: (31)	Re: Freezing RGD: One real quick point. As you said the chances are that the cigar, or the tobacco has been frozen at least once in its journey to your humidor The greater likelyhood is that it has been frozen perhaps multiple times... Now here comes the sticky point. If the tobacco has been frozen, wouldn't the water crystals forming in the tobacco do something to displace the oils and change the balance of the taste of the tobacco? Water and oil don't mix, and I am guessing that freezing probabally does change the taste of tobacco to some extent, but that we will probabally never know. My line of reasoning is below. It would be well nigh impossible to prove or disprove your point that the taste of a cigar changes when it's frozen, as ALL tobacco has been frozen a number of times... I would guess the tobacco farmers, cigar factory, distributor and wholesaler would all want to protect their intrests This then leads to the conclusion that it would indeed take a developed palate to tell the difference between the fifth and sixth freezings and thereby unless you roll a cigar fresh off the fields, you will never be able to tell the difference between fresh tobacco and frozen, because it's all been frozen. I dunno, if anyone can spot a hole in my logic, they are free to correct me.

12-31-2008, 08:53 AM	#6
Buena Fortuna Feeling at Home Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Sam Location: SE Michigan Posts: 637 Trading: (18)	Re: Freezing To freeze or not to freeze...read the facts and decide for yourself. Microscopic Lasioderma Serricorne (Tobacco Beetle) eggs exist in tobacco and foods alike. While Tobacco Beetles can be found in environments exceeding 65˚F, they typically only hatch and mate in temperature conditions of 68-73˚F, with high humidity > 60%. Of the four stages the beetle grows in and out of (egg, larva, pupa, adult), the Pupa stage is undoubtedly the most devastating for smokers. Emerging from the egg, approximately six to ten days after the temperature triggers their birth; the larvae live and feed off of your cigars, for roughly five to ten weeks. They prefer to reside in dark or dimly lit cracks, nooks and crevices but become active and fly readily in bright, open areas, probably in an attempt to find refuge. They are most active at dusk and will continue activity through the night. Adults do not feed, but will drink liquids. The complete life cycle takes 26 days at 98°F and 120 days at 68°F. L. Serricorne do not do well in the cold, adults die within 6 days at 39°F, and eggs survive 5 days at 32-41°F. Larvae become dormant and may hibernate below 60° F. Adults are strong fliers, and are particularly active in subdued light at temperatures above 65° F. Adults will cease all flying activity at 55°F. Temperatures of 1˚F or lower will crack the larvae and kill both eggs and adults. Heating small quantities of infested material in an oven (190°F for one hour, 120°F for 16 to 24 hours) also is effective. References • Baur FJ. 1991. Chemical methods to control insect pests of processed foods. pp. 427-440. In J. R. Gorham (ed.), Ecology and Management of Food-Industry Pests. FDA Technical Bulletin 4. • Buss LJ, Fasulo TR. (2006). Stored Product Pests. UF/IFAS. SW 185. CD-ROM. • Chuman T, Mochizuki K, Mori M, Kohno M, Kato K, Noguchi M. 1985. Lasioderma chemistry, Sex pheromone of cigarette beetle (Lasioderma serricorne F.). Journal of Chemical Ecology 11: 417-434. • Granovsky TA. Stored product pests. pp. 635-728. In D. Moreland (ed.), Handbook of Pest Control (by A. Mallis), Eighth Edition. Mallis Handbook and Technical Training Co. • Fasulo TR. (2002). German Cockroach and Stored Product Pests. Bug Tutorials. University of Florida/IFAS. CD-ROM. SW 165. • Fasulo TR, Kern W, Koehler PG, Short DE. (2005). Pests In and Around the Home. Version 2.0. University of Florida/IFAS. CD-ROM. SW 126. • Hill DS. 1990. Pests of stored products and their control. CRC Press, Boca Raton. 274 pp. • Howe RW. 1957. A laboratory study of the cigarette beetle, Lasioderma serricorne (F.)(Col., Anobiidae) with a critical review of the literature on its biology. Bulletin of Entomological Research 48: 9-56. • Krischik V, Burkholder W. 1995. Stored-product insects and biological control agents. pp. 85-102. In Krischik, V., G. Cuperus, and D. Galiart (eds.) Stored product management. Oklahoma Cooperative Extension Service Circular Number E-912. • Phillips TW. 1994. Pheromones of stored-product insects: current status and future perspectives. pp. 479-486. In E. Highley, E. J. Wright, H. J. Banks and B. R. Champ (eds.), Proceedings of the 6th International Working Conference on Stored-product Protection, Vol. 1. CAB International, Wallingford, U.K. • Phillips TW, Berberet RC, Cuperus GW. 2000. Postharvest integrated pest management, pp. 2690-2701. In F. J. Francis (ed.), The Wiley Encyclopedia of Food Science Technology, 2nd Edition. John Wiley and Sons, New York. • Phillips TW, Cogan PM, Fadamiro HY. 2000. Pheromones, pp. 273-302. In B. Subramanyam & D. W. Hagstrum (eds.), Alternatives to pesticides in stored-product IPM. Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston. • United States Department of Agriculture. 1980. Stored-grain insects. USDA-ARS Agriculture Handbook Number 500, 57 pp. __________________ Build a man a fire and he will be warm for hours. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.