Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not?

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by Resipsa

I respect where your coming from Tom. So……you support Simpsons being in Canton? After all, his crimes are completely unconnected to football

I do, as well as supporting Ogie Oglethorpe's campaign for the Hockey Hall of Fame.

Originally Posted by icehog3

I do, as well as supporting Ogie Oglethorpe's campaign for the Hockey Hall of Fame.

I think we both knownall about my level of hockey knowledge, so you'll have to edumacate me on who Ogie is

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by Resipsa

I think we both knownall about my level of hockey knowledge, so you'll have to edumacate me on who Ogie is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPEaOKI8ubU

[Buckeye Jack]

Most definitely he needs to be let in as a player. You can go in as both a player and a manager. His stats as a player would have made him a first ballot hall of famer.

Because of what he did as a manager, he should never go in as a manager. Had he never managed a baseball game in his life, he would be in. Nothing he did as a player is keeping him out.

Absolutely.

[Volt]

Originally Posted by shilala

Babe Ruth was an alcoholic who threw women down the stairs regularly.
I won't even get started on Ty Cobb.

That's why I was trying to stay on topic with Pete Rose. Adding 1 more bad individual just because others are already there doesn't work for me.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Jack

Most definitely he needs to be let in as a player. You can go in as both a player and a manager. His stats as a player would have made him a first ballot hall of famer.

From 84 to 86 he was a player/manager.
He broke Ty Cobb's all-time hits record as a player/manager.
That makes things a bit more sticky and confusing.

I think Pete screwed up from the get-go because he was pretty egotistical. Had he just said "hell yeah, I love gambling, and I love my boys, and I'm sorry and I won't do it again", he'd have been embraced, cause everyone loved Charlie Hustle.
He's a knucklehead though, and he had a serious gambling problem that's obvious to anyone who's ever followed his ups and downs. Whether he's ever got that under control, I don't know.
Add to all his other accomplishments on the field, he's also a Vet.
We should send him some cigars.

[kelmac07]

How can you have the record holder for the most hits ever not be in the Hall of Fame? YES!!!!!!!!!

[Volt]

Originally Posted by kelmac07

How can you have the record holder for the most hits ever not be in the Hall of Fame? YES!!!!!!!!!

hehe, I was waiting on you to chime in. Mr. Baseball!

[Starscream]

Originally Posted by vankleekkw

2. He always bet that his team would win.

We all bet on our own teams to win, in one form or another. This helps drive the desire to win.

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

If he would have admitted to betting on his team immediately would this even be a question? Or is it just because he denied it?

He clearly has the numbers to put in his own wing in the Hall of Fame. Not sure another player can rival the numbers he put up or the passion with which he played the game.

Pete wasn't a nice guy when he was playing. I hear he pissed off a bunch of people both as a player and a manager. His attitude didn't help him out of this situation by any means.

He clearly does have the numbers to open up his own wing! Free Pete!

Originally Posted by shilala

Babe Ruth was an alcoholic who threw women down the stairs regularly.
I won't even get started on Ty Cobb.

Bobby Cox (a future HOFer) beat his wife.
DiMaggio had mob connections.
Mantle was an alcoholic.
John McGraw cheated when the umpire wasn't looking.
The list goes on.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by andysutherland

Bobby Cox (a future HOFer) beat his wife.
DiMaggio had mob connections.
Mantle was an alcoholic.
John McGraw cheated when the umpire wasn't looking.
The list goes on.

That sews up the "you gotta be a good human" to be in the HOF argument pretty well.
People are people.
I play the game like Pete plays the game, always did. He's who taught me.
Not a day did he not give 1000%.
I think he might even love playing ball more than I do. I doubt it though.
Last summer I played softball and stroked two homers with a broken back and hadn't picked up a bat in six months. I also snagged a diving liner at short and had to have the second and third basemen get me off the ground.
I laid in bed for three days after that.
It was worth every minute.

[VTDragon]

Most of us who watch and enjoy sports do so under the assumption that the games are on the up and up. Otherwise all sports would be like professional wrestling. Sure, players will try lots of stuff, chemical and whatever to try to improve their performance, but I think most of us can at least accept that they are not fixing the games, they are trying to improve.

I do not think the same can be said of a gambler. All a gambler cares about is that the team he bet on ends up on top. Pete maintains that he never bet against his team, of course at one time he maintained that he didn't bet at all. Clearly he cannot be believed.

I do not dispute his many accomplishments and am very leary of applying criterion of things done outside of baseball to admittance into the Hall, but in this case, because gambling goes to the very integrity of the game, I think he shouuld be banned.

I think that he should be let in the day after his ban expires! I wouldn't lift the ban which was set for "life" not forever.

[AD720]

Originally Posted by VTDragon

Most of us who watch and enjoy sports do so under the assumption that the games are on the up and up. Otherwise all sports would be like professional wrestling. Sure, players will try lots of stuff, chemical and whatever to try to improve their performance, but I think most of us can at least accept that they are not fixing the games, they are trying to improve.

I do not think the same can be said of a gambler. All a gambler cares about is that the team he bet on ends up on top. Pete maintains that he never bet against his team, of course at one time he maintained that he didn't bet at all. Clearly he cannot be believed.

I do not dispute his many accomplishments and am very leary of applying criterion of things done outside of baseball to admittance into the Hall, but in this case, because gambling goes to the very integrity of the game, I think he shouuld be banned.

So gambling goes to the very integrity of the game but steroids do not?

Disagree.

[galaga]

Originally Posted by joed

I think that he should be let in the day after his ban expires! I wouldn't lift the ban which was set for "life" not forever.

I agree....

The rules are supposedly posted in every club house since the Black Sox scandal. He walked by them every day. I have trouble putting up with liars...

Originally Posted by kelmac07

How can you have the record holder for the most hits ever not be in the Hall of Fame? YES!!!!!!!!!

No. ****ing. ****.

[BigAsh]

4,000 + reasons he should be in the HOF.....YES!

[St. Lou Stu]

I voted that he should be in the HOF.

However, if he is voted in that sets a very sad precedence for the jackasses who took every drug and hormone they could get their hands on just to be something that they never would have been without CHEATING.

The dudes who take drugs and hormones shouldn't be allowed. Period.
Hard work Talent, and Hustle is what make you a Hall of Famer. Not Science.

Pete had all of that, unfortunately he did break rules that shouldn't be bent for anyone.
If ya bend the rules for someone, ya got to do it for everyone.

Sad, but true.

It woulda been nice if he didn't get caught.

the discussion on the steriod users is interesting when talking about the hall of fame. The owners and commissioners had to know it was happening - just look at the players - and they chose to stick their heads in the sand and let it continue. When folks got caught, they are all up in arms. I just don't know.

And now talk about how all of the baseball world talks about pitch count - are there any modern era pitchers that should be put in the hall of fame? My thought is no - Guys like Nolan Ryan, Catfish Hunter and Sandy Koufax threw more complete games in one season than the most dominate pitcher today will have in his career! Figure that one out if you can.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by VTDragon

Pete maintains that he never bet against his team, of course at one time he maintained that he didn't bet at all. Clearly he cannot be believed.

You don't have to take Pete's word on that one.
A lawyer investigated Pete's gambling (The Dowd Report). Found 100's of instances of gambling. Not one bet was ever placed against his team.