Any Plumbers in the Nut House?

[The Professor]

Okay. So here's the deal. Hot water in the bath tub had been temperamental for a few weeks. I'd go to turn it off and it'd slip past the off position and turn back on again. I'd do it a second time (more carefully) and all was good. Didn't really think much of it.

Yesterday, it did the same thing ... except this time, it wouldn't turn off on the second try. I gan get it to the point where it's a slow drizzle; but I can't get it to stop. If I press in on the stem, the water flow stops.

So I read up and it seems (from all I've seen) that there's something wrong probably with the seat, seat washer, or stem.

Regardless, the solution involves loosening the packing nut so I can pull the stem and replace one or more parts. Well, the jackasses who remodeled the bathroom and installed tile didn't cut a big enough hole to access the packing nut. Not is there an entry panel on the opposite wall. So ... I got a Dremel, picked up a ceramic cutting bit, and went to town to widen the hole.

I've got it widened to the point of being able to get the second to largest stem wrench (glorified thin-walled socket type wrench) in the hole, but it's not catching on any nut. I put my pinky finger in there and can't feel the angled edges of a nut, either.

Q1: Is it possible to have setup where there isn't a packing nut in the valve/stem assembly?

Q2: Is there anything else I could do short of calling a plumber?

I'm really at a loss here ... feeling totally defeated by this damn hot water control.

More info: House built in 1960s. This may or may not be original hardware. I don't think it was replaced by the last homeowner when they did their remodel (or they would have understood the importance of making the hole bigger). It's a two-handle control, Kohler brand, with the diverter valve and hose to the shower both on the spout.

Anyway, if any plumbers in the house can help a Brother out, I'd be much obliged....

shilala might be the one to bug.

[The Professor]

Thanks for the PMs from folks. Widened the hole so my biggest tool could fit (no jokes, people ). Still no dice. There is for sure no nut back behind the tile onto which a tool can latch on to turn.

Oy.

[mikeyj23]

Originally Posted by The Professor

Widened the hole so my biggest tool could fit (no jokes, people ). Still no dice. There is for sure no nut back behind the tile onto which a tool can latch on to turn.

I don't get it. Why would there be a joke? Please explain...

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by mikeyj23

I don't get it. Why would there be a joke? Please explain...

Careful, Mikey ... I'll be in your neighborhood in two weeks and can kick your a$$ in person.

Can you shoot me a picture of both, the one that is complet(handle showing) and what ever you can photo of the other hole? I may be of help..

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Gone Dave

Can you shoot me a picture of both, the one that is complet(handle showing) and what ever you can photo of the other hole? I may be of help..

Sure.

Here's the cold water (still intact):



And here's the hot water (disassembled):





Sorry for the picture quality -- wife has the good camera and all I have is the BlackBerry. Hope someone can see a clue....

[MajorCaptSilly]

There really should be a nut back at the back of the stem. I've always used deep well sockets for those. I used to have stems that were too long even for deep well and I'd slip the socket over the stem so the stem would go through the hole at the back of the socket then use channel locks to turn.

MCS

[stinkie]

if you look at it you will see that the nut that you are looking for is on the outer sleeve next to the stem where the handle is conected. take the whole sleeve loose and you should see the washer that you are looking for .



stinkie

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by MajorCaptSilly

There really should be a nut back at the back of the stem. I've always used deep well sockets for those. I used to have stems that were too long even for deep well and I'd slip the socket over the stem so the stem would go through the hole at the back of the socket then use channel locks to turn.

MCS

I've tried about 10 different sizes. No dice. There's no nut behind the tile.

Originally Posted by stinkie

if you look at it you will see that the nut that you are looking for is on the outer sleeve next to the stem where the handle is conected. take the whole sleeve loose and you should see the washer that you are looking for .



stinkie

So the piece that starts about 1/2" from the front end and continues back (once solid piece) into the wall *is* the nut?

[stinkie]

yes.


stinkie

It looks as though the eschutchen sleeve may work as the nut aroung the packing,I would turn of the water to the tub/house and use a deep well socket,possibly a spark plug size and remove the whole thing..
then you can see the seat inside and if you can't "see" it you can use your finger tip to feel for cracks or gouges in the seat. if its bad it will either be an octagon in the center or a squareish,(is that a word)?hole for the "seat wrench to fit into, (available for min- cash) at Home Depot or the like..
But take the whoe thing out and head to the HIS, I would look for an ACE hardware type store for the "FOG" to help match it up or for last choice HD, Packing string comes in a small 1-2' roll and is nothing more than a waxy string covered in graphite, and the washers for the seat seal will be sold seprate too..,or you may be able to "match" up the whole stem.. should not be alot-$$ but could cost as much as $30 bucks new.. either way you have done the hard part already.. just remember that it should come in hot or cold, so check the "twist" of the handle and match it up.

[MajorCaptSilly]

Originally Posted by Gone Dave

It looks as though the eschutchen sleeve may work as the nut aroung the packing,I would turn of the water to the tub/house and use a deep well socket,possibly a spark plug size and remove the whole thing..
then you can see the seat inside and if you can't "see" it you can use your finger tip to feel for cracks or gouges in the seat. if its bad it will either be an octagon in the center or a squareish,(is that a word)?hole for the "seat wrench to fit into, (available for min- cash) at Home Depot or the like..
But take the whoe thing out and head to the HIS, I would look for an ACE hardware type store for the "FOG" to help match it up or for last choice HD, Packing string comes in a small 1-2' roll and is nothing more than a waxy string covered in graphite, and the washers for the seat seal will be sold seprate too..,or you may be able to "match" up the whole stem.. should not be alot-$$ but could cost as much as $30 bucks new.. either way you have done the hard part already.. just remember that it should come in hot or cold, so check the "twist" of the handle and match it up.

What he said. I always opt to just replace the stem.

MCS

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by stinkie

yes.


stinkie

Alright ... well ... I've given it as much muscle as I'm willing to on an internet diagnosis. Gave it a little shot of WD40 in the back to loosen things up and it still wouldn't budge. My concern at this point is that I'm not actually turning the right thing. I know I *probably* am; but I don't want to risk putting a lot of muscle into turning the wrong thing, which then breaks a weld or something back in the wall. Then I'd be totally eff'd.

At this point, I'm probably just gonna wimp out and call the plumber tomorrow. It'll probably be a 20 minute fix; but I'm kind of feeling like that's worth avoiding the risk of a 2 hour repair.

Thanks to all the folks who've chimed in here or over PM.

[RGD.]

Originally Posted by The Professor

So the piece that starts about 1/2" from the front end and continues back (once solid piece) into the wall *is* the nut?

Exactly. And it's not going to come off easy. If you are not grabbing anything - then you are not using a large enough socket for it. That looks to be either a Sterling or Eljer faucet. The chrome part on the stem tighten against a packing - but you need to loosen the part that looks like the body to you - and it's all the way in the back. You may not have enough tile removed.

So you need a larger size socket (plumbers) and a large wrench in order to turn the socket. Once that is off you can replace the washer and the seat. Be advised the seat also takes a special tool (cheap) - insert it and then tap it lightly to set it, otherwise you will just round the seat off. If you can't get it out then you could install a beveled washer, but it won't last as long as the correct one. And don't forget the grease.


Ron

[14holestogie]

The grease may come in handy right before the plumber hands you his bill.

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by 14holestogie

The grease may come in handy right before the plumber hands you his bill.

Tell me about it.

[The Professor]

oops ... thought I updated things here in this thread; but apparently I didn't. got an appointment with a plumber who finally showed up about quarter after 4pm on the 27th. I was at work; but my wife was home. he tinkered around for a while, left for parts, came back, said he fixed it, and was gone 5 or so minutes before I got home. $75. went in to check the water and the damned knob would barely turn and no water came on.

sooooo ... I called. papa plumber said his son (who did the job) wasn't back yet but that he could come in the next morning to fix it. as I was telling him "no way in hell," baby plumber got back, they talked in the background, and papa plumber said they'd be right over.

turns out baby plumber didn't quite get everything right; so papa plumber made some adjustments to the part (seat and stem), reinstalled, and it works; although, it now turns i the opposite direction.

turns out that this is *old* plumbing -- 1960s when the house was built. papa plumber says there were all kinds of problems with this kind of setup and stem and that it should probably be replaced. I told him I'd leave that decision up to the next owner who takes possession of the house in 2 months. it works, has a clean bill of health, and that's all that matters to me.

in talking with him, learning about the rarity of this particular setup (home depot definitely doesn't carry it), etc., I'm *absolutely certain* there's no way I would have been able to fix it on my own.

$75 well spent in my book.

thanks to the folks who weighed in in public and in private. I learned a lot that I'll be able to take with me to my next home in Texas.

[mmblz]

hey, already a thread for this!


is a 2" shower drain enough to handle 10 GPM ?
Google seems to suggest it is but not as conclusive as I would like...

[jledou]

Not a 100% guarantee but yes that should be OK.