Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?

[shilala]

I was just thinking about how deep this "bounty" thing goes. College and High School players get a sticker on their helmet for big plays. If a kid knocks the opposing team's starting QB out of the game, you can sure bet he's gonna get a sticker.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

Bernard Pollard said he did, and he liked hurting Patriots players.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...welker-injury/

Seems like he felt pretty unlucky about his situation, calling the injuries terrible and not being pleased at all about them.... I couldn't find anything on him saying he went out to intentionally injure....

Do you have any links to back up your statements?

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by shilala

I was just thinking about how deep this "bounty" thing goes. College and High School players get a sticker on their helmet for big plays. If a kid knocks the opposing team's starting QB out of the game, you can sure bet he's gonna get a sticker.

Welcome to page 1, Scott....

Originally Posted by E.J.

In High School and College, the bounties are stickers on your helmet... They go out headhunting, leave a few guys withering on the ground, you can bet they'll be adding to their stamp collection. The guys in the NFL just get paid more....

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

They STILL get called cheaters. Hell, I heard plenty of times they got to the Super Bowl this year because they cheated.

Who's stated that they're still cheating? As an aside, their pre and post Spygate playoff records are pretty telling...

All that being said, I STILL don't think either of these situations (Spygate, Bountygate) is as bad as what the Broncos did when they won their two Super Bowls.

[OLS]

I was a fan of the Saints piling up the defensive stats that got them to the Super Bowl, basically. Lifetime Saints fan.
Last year and this year, we turned from an opportunistic defense into a defense that couldn't stop anybody from
doing anything. That is when I know that I no longer wanted to see Greg Williams on the Saints' coaching staff.
None of this surprises me or bothers me as long as he is gone. Player development went into the $hi++er, or as Madden
calls it, 'Player Progression'. Will Smith, can't get to the QB...linebackers can't tackle, DBs can't cover...screw that guy.

[proguy747]

Originally Posted by taltos

Until the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income. I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.

Big difference between gambling and cheating.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Welcome to page 1, Scott....

Lol. I was pressed for time. I usually read everything before I post, I read way faster than I type.
You were absolutely right, by the way!!!

[BHalbrooks]

Originally Posted by E.J.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...welker-injury/

Seems like he felt pretty unlucky about his situation, calling the injuries terrible and not being pleased at all about them.... I couldn't find anything on him saying he went out to intentionally injure....

Do you have any links to back up your statements?

I haven't searched for it online. I just heard a clip from an interview after they lost saying he's ok with it, and he's also ok with the Title of "Patriot Killer".

Edit: Link on Google. That was the 3rd result. I didn't look past it, don't really care to haha.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Who's stated that they're still cheating? As an aside, their pre and post Spygate playoff records are pretty telling...

All that being said, I STILL don't think either of these situations (Spygate, Bountygate) is as bad as what the Broncos did when they won their two Super Bowls.

A lot of people that root for other teams, especially NY fans, still bring it up, saying that they're probably still cheating. I wouldn't say they aren't as good since they aren't doing it anymore. Take the D that won the 2007 SB, change it for this years, and they'd have another SB victory... Easily.

I'm not sure what they did. Fill me in?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

A lot of people that root for other teams, especially NY fans, still bring it up, saying that they're probably still cheating.

So fans of other teams busting chops? No offense, but whoopity damn doo. I still hear about Favre and his vicodin addiction, and his flashing his wee-wee, etc., and those things are completely irrelevant to the Packers (and have been for some time).

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

I wouldn't say they aren't as good since they aren't doing it anymore

Their playoff record disagrees with you, and what gives a lot of fuel to the fire as to how big of an impact it made in the Patriots winning three Super Bowls.

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

Take the D that won the 2007 SB, change it for this years, and they'd have another SB victory... Easily.

Ok. Except the team that won the Super Bowl in 2007 won it again this year.

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

I'm not sure what they did. Fill me in?

Grossly circumvented the salary cap which directly led them to being able to put together that team that won back-to-back Super Bowls in the late 90's. If I remember correctly they were fined alomst a million dollars and forfeited a couple of draft picks.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

I haven't searched for it online. I just heard a clip from an interview after they lost saying he's ok with it, and he's also ok with the Title of "Patriot Killer".

Edit: Link on Google. That was the 3rd result. I didn't look past it, don't really care to haha.
in?

You need to read what you are linking.... He said it was a clean hit, no malicious intent, Brady just happened to get hurt. In a nutshell....

“The hit on Brady,” Pollard said on Thursday. “Look, it’s football, at the end of the day guys get hurt every Sunday. I think the fact of the matter is that in this case it was Tom Brady. Nothing was intentional, nothing was malicious. When that happened, we had other guys go down that day and nothing happened.”

“I took pride because I didn’t do anything wrong,” Pollard said. “This is a game where anything can happen. I don’t care about recognition, I don’t care about being the face of the NFL, I’m just blessed to be able to do what I do.”

You don't care? So you make strong statements, refuting previous comments, but really don't care if they are true or to back them up.....

I again ask you to find me something that says that Mr. Pollard or any other NFL play states that they are going out trying to blow up knees, ankles, ruin careers/seasons. Guys lose a season to a knee regularly, but I cannot think of a hit on a season ending play that I thought was overtly malicious or dirty.


...and just to be clear, to be okay with doing your job and having someone get a season ending injury, doesn't mean that you went out to intentionally injure/maim. It doesn't mean that you are okay with dirty plays that result in season ending injuries. It doesn't mean that you are going out trying to end guys seasons/careers.

A player can be fine with the result of a clean hit, even if it ends with an injury. Hell, these guys will be living with a lot of regret if they have to worry about every time someone gets hurt. One more time....

My statement -

Originally Posted by E.J.

I don't believe that any of these people were going after knees ect. I am not sure there is a player in the NFL that is going to intentionally take out someone's ACL or the like, I just don't believe that.

Your response, quoting my post -

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

Bernard Pollard said he did, and he liked hurting Patriots players.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by shilala

Lol. I was pressed for time. I usually read everything before I post, I read way faster than I type.
You were absolutely right, by the way!!!

I am actually surprised that it hasn't come up with the national media. It seems like a clear correlation to me and I don't think a d-coordinator saying to his players that the object of the game plan is to hit certain players over and over and over, "put them on the bench." Hell, I think it is a solid gameplan.

I think the issues appears to be a reward for success.....

[shilala]

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by shilala

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.

Originally Posted by shilala

Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not.

Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...

[Gophernut]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...for-dirty-play
From this past season. Maybe there is something to this story. I understand that you go after the "weak link" but if you're intentionally trying to hurt a player, than it's just dirty. Don't care if you get paid for it or not. Sticker, steak, bounty, ice cream cone, whatever. You shouldn't play to do others harm.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...

Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case.

Originally Posted by shilala

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.

Originally Posted by shilala

Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case.

Just meant we had to hear him talk more.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Wanger

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.



Just meant we had to hear him talk more.

I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.

On the high school level, kids have no clue how to avoid wrecking another kid for life. One chop block or low hit on a planted foot can ruin someone forever. They don't get that. They don't have any idea what kind of hits can (and do) cause ankles and knees to get blown out. They spear and jam their own necks because they think their gear is armor and they're immortal. My point wasn't that they know HOW to cause a huge injury on purpose, it's that they don't know how to AVOID causing a huge injury.
They'll also throw their bodies around with wreckless abandon because everyone is immortal when they're that age.

How painful is it that Michael Irvin ended up in a postgame show?

Originally Posted by shilala

I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.

It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Wanger

It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.

See, I thought we agreed.
I illustrated that extra hard shot when a receiver comes across the middle for a specific reason. It doesn't need to be there any more than a strategy that specifically targets knocking a player out of the game, but it's also one in the same, more or less. Very often those wide receivers get helped off the field and suffer bruised ribs, etc. It's a planned and accepted head-hunting strategy that's played out the whole game, every game.
While I agree the whole "bounty" thing is infantile and wreckless, it's a part of the game that's always been and will always be there.
The breakdown here is that some nipplehead shot his mouth off and brought locker room business out in the open, which is a major no-no. They put both the players, coaches and NFL in peril. If someone is to lose their career, I think it should be the guy that shot his mouth off, not the coach who's taking the fall for it (when he clearly isn't the guy responsible for running the pool).

I think if there's one thing you and I disagree on, it's "the integrity...of the sport". That went out the window when big money rolled into town. Major League Baseball suffers from the same affliction. It's probably the most sickening in the NBA where Kobe Bryant runs the league.
At some point money became far more important than integrity. Unfortunately some of this is bleeding downhill to college and high school, but fortunately there are still a lot of coaches in small markets at those levels that still use sports as a tool to build quaility men, rather than to fill the coffers with cash.

Great points and awesome discussion, by the way. You're making me rethink all this real hard, brother.

I guess I'm a purist, in regards to the sports I watch. Though I'm not deluded enough to think that it is actually that way. It's how I really want to see it. The salaries are beyond insane, and aren't going to stop going up any time soon. Don't get me started on MLB...UGH!!!

As for the NBA, are they even required to dribble any more? If so, is it just not allowed inside the 3 point line? I'm sick of the "mugging" for the camera every time they make a shot or block one. Move on, next play, unless it's a game winner or something of that nature. Not when you're down by 25 with 2 minutes left in the 4th. ...and Kobe could never hold MJ's jock when he was in his prime.

Thats the thing about how sports used to be. It was used as a tool to build quality men (and women). You used to learn how to fill your role and work as a team. In the field I work in, I supervise, interview, and hire people. I see more and more of the younger generation simply in it for themselves. They don't know how to actually collaborate and work with people any more. It's sad and rather disgusting to me, as I place a high value on being able to work well within a team (of any nature). Put your ego aside and get shyte done.

As for the investigation of the bounty program, I don't remember how they figured it all out. I remember hearing they had investigated before, but don't remember the details of how it was all confirmed. I will say that if I was on a team that had one, and the league office asked me whether it existed or not, I would be truthful about it. Just not in my nature to not do it. The one thing I do know is that there were rumors of it earlier, and the league checked some, and told them to knock it off, if they had one. They didn't. That's on management and the coaching staff, IMO, whether or not Williams instituted it (which is who did, as far as I'm aware...please correct me if I'm wrong about that). As for who takes the blame...the players involved obviously do, but do you suspend only specific ones for those instances? I think the coaches should, as well, as they are in the position to stop it, but apparently didn't (at the minimum)...especially when the league already told them to knock it off.

OK...I've spent FAR too much time on this issue than I should have, and I am going to let it die now. I think I finally was able to get my point of view expressed clearly, and know that it's a minority position here.