stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

Had this discussion on some other forums. When I had it on Cbid forum all hell broke loose. So I'll start with some disclaimers

1. I order internet cigars. I will not stop.

2. I do not think internet cigars are bad.

3. I understand that all the big internet guys also have b&m. I'll still refer to them as internet stores. They are different.

4. I understand that many of you think of a smoke shop as a b&m. Its not. The typical smoke shop with a small humidor is not the same as a b&m that actually deals with rocky and nestor and nick. These are smoke shops for the sake of this discussion.

Ok. Here is the basic premise. A B&M has superior cigars to internet.

Definition of terms.

Internet shop: this is the big guys. CI, famous etc.

Smoke shop: see above.

Local B&M: a store dedicated to tobacco and most likely an emphasis on cigars. Deals with makers of cigars and not just distributors.

Reason for discussion: I've noticed that the cigars are very good at the lounge I go to. Usually better than the ones I get myself from internet.

Supporting statements:
1. Side by side tests. I've taken a number of internet cigars into my lounge and bought the same cigar there and smoked them side by side. Even had a few botl try it too and we all thought the local one was better. Even in blind tests.

2. Botl had gone to Honduras and Dominican republic and reported that locals(workers at the factories) had stated that inferior tobacco and piles left laying around in the factory were for internet cigars.

3. Just conjecture here but I think to myself as a businessman. First the big guys want these incredible discounts. Need to use surplus and extra tobacco. Second I know that the small guy is aware of everything that comes into his shop. Whereas the big guy. Not so much. I know that in my business the guy who makes 2 orders a month will probably call me about both. On the other hand the company that orders 100 one of his employees may call every 3 months or so.

Possible other explinations:
1. Time. The local may not sell as fast and therfore the sticks get to age. I don't agree with this because I've gotten them right as my local gas received them. But the point has some merit. Plausible.
2. Storage conditions. Big guys use a warehouse. Local a more closely watched environment. Again reason above makes me think not so but again. Plausible.

Final thoughts: again just my opinion and I will still order and smoke internet cigars. But I think the makers know who their clients are and will give superior product to the local guys. It helps keep them in business when they can't compete price wise and reduces complaints. Try a side by side testing and support you local as much as your budget allows.

Ok fire off!!

[Raralith]

I don't understand your supporting statements since there's isn't a whole lot of support.

1. Were they all blind test? How many did you smoke? How many did you have other people try? This is pretty subjective too...

2. I would love to see someone saying this, or a manufacturing commenting on this. I couldn't find anything to support this either.

3. I can't say I agree with what you are saying. The big guys get incredible discounts because they buy in such large quantities. The supplier is willing to make less margin on each cigar if they can sell ten times that amount. This may or may not effect the tabacoo, but being such a big distributor, if you are out of one cigar, you have 50 others that you can sell in its place. I can't see how a big guy could not be aware of what they are getting either. It's not like they are only employing 2 people, and being such a big distributor, there probably is a customer service and quality control department.

I have tried side by side comparisons, and it rarely ever works out since almost every single B&M I've gone to keeps their cigars at 70RH and its much too wet. When I take them home though and compare, I personally don't see a difference. Cigar wise, I think it would be hard pressed to show impericle evidence that B&M cigars are better than online retailers simply because so much about cigars are all subjective. What probably plays the most important factor is how a B&M stores their cigars. I've seen some that are just terrible, and others very well maintained.

Honestly, a cigar is just a cigar. What makes a good cigar better is perception and mood. Take for example tea; I love tea. Tea's great, and I've got a lot of different brands, variety, and even aged tea. But, the best tea is tea with good friends and company, and even the highest grade tea taste terrible when one is in a foul mood.

[Smokin Gator]

I started considering this... then my head started hurting!! All I know is I like most of the sticks I get online and I like most of the sticks I buy at a B&M.

The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

[tunes]

Originally Posted by Smokin Gator

The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

I agree with Gator

Originally Posted by Raralith

I don't understand your supporting statements since there's isn't a whole lot of support.

1. Were they all blind test? How many did you smoke? How many did you have other people try? This is pretty subjective too...


Honestly, a cigar is just a cigar. What makes a good cigar better is perception and mood. Take for example tea; I love tea. Tea's great, and I've got a lot of different brands, variety, and even aged tea. But, the best tea is tea with good friends and company, and even the highest grade tea taste terrible when one is in a foul mood.

First statement. I couldn't give you an exact number of tests or guys. We do it a lot. Its kind of a game at our lounge. A guy will bring in 4 or 5 sticks. The botl will buy the same and we will test. Sometimes blind sometimes not. The most telling thing is 100% say the local is better. It never fails. This is absolutely subjective but telling none the less.

Your last statement I completely agree with. My best smokes have been on dates with my wife when we are really enjoying each other.

[chippewastud79]

I don't really buy the "Internet and B+M cigars are actually different cigars to save money" argument. Although your "experiments" with the two different types are interesting, I think they are nothing more than a bias. The only way to truly tell if your "experiments" can be taken as conclusive would be to take one of each, place them in the same storage conditions for an extended period of time and then smoke them each blind with no prior knowledge of knowing one was from the internet and one was from a B+M. Without actual evidence for the "different cigar" theory, I don't think there is any argument that can be made claiming this.

[G G]

Originally Posted by Smokin Gator

I started considering this... then my head started hurting!! All I know is I like most of the sticks I get online and I like most of the sticks I buy at a B&M.

The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

You see Brent, even though we don't agree on football we can agree on other things.

[MajorCaptSilly]

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.

MCS

[Chemyst]

Depends on your B&M and even the stores he owns/runs.
My B&M has 3 or 4 locations, and at one of them the
employees have NO CLUE about running a humidifier.

At another location we sometimes smoke inside the
walk-in, particularly if there is an event. IMHO this
doesn't help the open box stock.

I've been to both CI stores. The downtown location
is very small with a somewhat limited selection. The
new Superstore is modern with a nice lounge in the back
and a very good selection. The cigars I bought were OK.
And their mail order smokes are quite serviceable.

I also go to Holts several times each year. They know
how to treat cigars.

I've got dry cigars from the big guys and my local B&M.
If I let them recover in my humi, they will be good,
except for the one local location with poor humi habits.

I never worry about smokes from Holts. In fact they
might be a bit moist for some, but I smoke at least one
right there on every trip and never had a bad one.
Once I get them home and in my humi they remain in
top condition.

I think it's a matter of knowing how to deal with what
you get, rather than how they were kept at the store.
If you buy from a store and they consistently sell you
dry smokes, just let them recover(if possible) in your
humi, or find another store.

Many mail order smokes seem to be over humidified before
shipping, IMHO. This lets them dry out, a bit, while in transit.
Nothing wrong with that, except that OTT they might plug
a bit more.

Some people/brands prefer slightly drier smokes. To me they
burn a bit hot, but that's a personal preference.

YMMV

Chemyst

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

The only way to truly tell if your "experiments" can be taken as conclusive would be to take one of each, place them in the same storage conditions for an extended period of time and then smoke them each blind with no prior knowledge of knowing one was from the internet and one was from a B+M. Without actual evidence for the "different cigar" theory, I don't think there is any argument that can be made claiming this.

Absolutely agree with the above. Blind is the only way to go, any other side by side comparison is "prejudiced" from the start whether one admits to it or not.

I also seriously doubt manufacturers produce 2 separate batches, one for B&M and another for internet. One never knows where the cigars will end eventually plus it would take MORE, man power wise, to produce separate batches, store separately, etc. As a manufacturer (not cigars, though) I can simply say this is BS and a myth form many points of view as it would only increase the cost of production of BOTH batches.

That said, I can't even begin to fathom why anyone would even come up with this theory/myth unless whoever started this BS asked one question without delving into follow up questions such as, "So, this tobacco is used for bundled seconds?" And a few more, just to see if factory workers are simply playing with you (which I could see as they are bored out of their minds on a hot day and need to poke fun at a turista).

I agree there could be logistical issues. Really the whole thing came up from some of my botl going to the factories and hearing what the workers said. I'll be going to Nicaragua myself in may to see.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by MajorCaptSilly

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.
MCS

100% agreed.

[boonedoggle]

To me, many of the B&Ms I've encountered seem to have employees that are pompous. I guess maybe I haven't found a good place to visit on a regular basis, but from what I can tell, I'd rather visit a C&M because their prices are typically better anyways. Thanks Internet.

[alley00p]

I talked about this with my local B&M owner. He deals with companies directly when possible, but there is always Ataldis and other major companies that only deal through their distributors.

That being said, he keeps a good variety of sticks in his humidor, and is constanly changing what he orders, based on what his customers are looking for. For instance, he only keeps a few different Gurkhas because they don't move well. And being a smaller shop (not one of the big chains locally), he can't afford to place orders for a few thousand $ of sticks if they are going to sit on his shelves and not sell.

I always buy a couple of sticks when I go in, but I also bring sticks in that I have been gifted or bought online. He dislikes the online stores, not so much because they can beat his prices, but because he says you can't ever be sure how the cigars have been stored in their warehouse.

Bottom line is that I go there for the fellowship of the other cigar smokers who come in and are regulars. There is something about smoking in the company of others, as was mentioned above!

[Gonesledn]

i have been inside the cigars international climate controled warehouse... aka humidor. dam it is very high tech and constantly monitored to optimal conditions.

[Footbag]

I live in PA, and for the most part, with just a few exceptions, my local B&M's have very reasonable prices. I live about an hour from CI, and although I don't really consider them my B&M; I don't have any problems ordering from them.

That said, I will always give preference to the local B&M. They have smoking lounges and put up with and lobby against smoking laws, and they need support. I can always find something to buy at a B&M.

Originally Posted by MajorCaptSilly

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.

MCS

I agree with him %100.

[Lucky_Hippo]

This is why placebos sometimes work. The power of suggestion is a powerful drug, but it often brings an unwelcome bias when searching for "truth".

Big, cold, unattentive, warehouse cyber store.

or

Small, warm, personable, boutique-like cigar shop.

The cards are kind of stacked in the favor of the B&M when your data is pulled from a polling group of B&M regulars.

To get true data, I'm with the other guys above. You'd have to do a blind tasting, using unbiased cigar smokers without affiliations, and product stored/treated in the exact same conditions for a pre-disposed amount of time. AND not tell the smokers what they should be looking for and let them figure it out themselves.

Conspiracy theorys are fun. It just seems like an awful lot of work for ALL cigar manufacturers to follow up on when in fact, the secrets between each company could fill the grand canyon.

But hey, I also think my mom's fried chicken is the best in the world too.

[stitch]

There aint a B&M within a 7 hour drive of me ....So ..........
JR & FSS Internet Big guy's here I come!

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Absolutely agree with the above. Blind is the only way to go, any other side by side comparison is "prejudiced" from the start whether one admits to it or not.

I also seriously doubt manufacturers produce 2 separate batches, one for B&M and another for internet. One never knows where the cigars will end eventually plus it would take MORE, man power wise, to produce separate batches, store separately, etc. As a manufacturer (not cigars, though) I can simply say this is BS and a myth form many points of view as it would only increase the cost of production of BOTH batches.

That said, I can't even begin to fathom why anyone would even come up with this theory/myth unless whoever started this BS asked one question without delving into follow up questions such as, "So, this tobacco is used for bundled seconds?" And a few more, just to see if factory workers are simply playing with you (which I could see as they are bored out of their minds on a hot day and need to poke fun at a turista).

Wow! Strong opinion. Very sure. Wasn't there.