Delivery Pizza Complaints

[KidRock]

[quote=jcruse64;1210783]It's a longer drive for you, KidRock, but I have Padrons if the pizza is REAL good!

Love pizza, but not the chain stuff.

PADRONS?? LOL....I'm swinging by....I'll be in the area....make sure you got a few of those bad boys waiting!

[KidRock]

I delivered a pizza tonight, I haven't done this in years..I covered for a coworker who had to take his wife to the hospital..I usually don't do this but for anyone of my coworkers Id take a bullet for them. I had to take the pizza over 25 minutes from location a and back. I was respectful and got a great tip...also the new heat bags that are made keep them really hot. Steam was flying out of the boxes when they were handed out....Moral of pizza....be real and loyal...thank you 8 dollar tip

[Silound]

I strongly resent the fact that there is a general edge to malign those who work in the service industry as a whole. One or two bad apples can give the rest of us a bad name, but many of us consider ourselves professionals doing a job, and as such we don't like being lumped into a category with all the delivery drivers, take out services, fast food, etc etc. We really HATE being lumped in with the people who do stupid shat like spitting on food or other antics. There's a reason the industry is attractive, where else can you make $25K+ a year part time as a student?

There are times when I have given poor service, and usually apologize for it, and I still get tipped. There are times when I give great service and get miserable tips for various reasons. And don't get me started on profiling people and how they tip.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of people need to learn a bit more about the ins and outs of the service industry, and learn when (in the uncommon but possible time that is is warranted) to tip less than normal. There is no such thing as no tip unless the server assaults you verbally or physically or defiles your food in any way. End. Of. Story.

Most of you who have never done so would probably absolutely HATE working in a restaurant if you had to do it for a month.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by Silound

Most of you who have never done so would probably absolutely HATE working in a restaurant if you had to do it for a month.

I'd be in jail within a week.

[Adriftpanda]

No complaints here. Saw this thread and said to myself, "damn I want some pizza."

Thanks guys, it was delicious.

[Volusianator]

Originally Posted by Silound

There are times when I have given poor service, and usually apologize for it, and I still get tipped.

Honesty and sincerity go a LONG way in my book!

Originally Posted by Silound

There are times when I give great service and get miserable tips for various reasons.

Sometimes people just don't understand. I've DJ'd weddings for over 19 years, have received thousands of dollars in tips, and have done weddings where I was a freakin' musical God, and got no tip. I don't feel bad in that later example as I know some people just don't think of tipping my profession. However, I better at least get a thank you and handshake for my efforts, then I'm happy.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Silound

There is no such thing as no tip unless the server assaults you verbally or physically or defiles your food in any way. End. Of. Story.

And that's what I'm talking about. If you're a salesman working on commission, if for whatever reason you don't make a sale, you don't get commission. In the service industry if you don't take care of your client, why should it be expected that you receive gratuity? I'm not talking about outliers here (see: cheap people or people impossible to please) so those need not apply.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Volusianator

Sometimes people just don't understand. I've DJ'd weddings for over 19 years, have received thousands of dollars in tips, and have done weddings where I was a freakin' musical God, and got no tip. I don't feel bad in that later example as I know some people just don't think of tipping my profession. However, I better at least get a thank you and handshake for my efforts, then I'm happy.

No doubt. You gotta take care of the people who take care of you.

[SmokeyJoe]

Originally Posted by icehog3

I'd be in jail within a week.

Me too!

Except in the Admiral's case... I'm pretty sure the reason he was in jail is because somebody ended up in the hospital.

[Lumpold]

Originally Posted by Stephen

And that's what I'm talking about. If you're a salesman working on commission, if for whatever reason you don't make a sale, you don't get commission. In the service industry if you don't take care of your client, why should it be expected that you receive gratuity? I'm not talking about outliers here (see: cheap people or people impossible to please) so those need not apply.

I worked as a barman and manager, and I let each member of staff keep their own tips, minus 10% to the floor staff. When servers told me this was unfair as So-and-So was making 10x more than them in tips, I made them watch a highlight reel from the CCTV of their service and So-and-So's service, then tell me the difference. I generally found that they at least left with a sense of why the other person was earning more in tips. Conversely, my best bar staff would often come and tell me where they f*cked-up and why they didn't make many tips on a night...

As my salesmen, their commission was their tip. Any fool can take an order at a bar, it takes great service for the barman to earn a tip.

[jcruse64]

[quote=KidRock;1211047]

Originally Posted by jcruse64

It's a longer drive for you, KidRock, but I have Padrons if the pizza is REAL good!

Love pizza, but not the chain stuff.

PADRONS?? LOL....I'm swinging by....I'll be in the area....make sure you got a few of those bad boys waiting!

Wait another month and we'll eat the pizza on KY Lake and smoke the Padrons while float around and blow the smoke at my wife .

[Silound]

Originally Posted by Stephen

And that's what I'm talking about. If you're a salesman working on commission, if for whatever reason you don't make a sale, you don't get commission. In the service industry if you don't take care of your client, why should it be expected that you receive gratuity? I'm not talking about outliers here (see: cheap people or people impossible to please) so those need not apply.

Because unfortunately, the server can only do so much to make you happy. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of factors people grind against servers that they can't control.

Example from my closing shift Friday night:

Busy as hell, short wait at the door, understaffed on the floor, most servers have 5-7 tables, which is 2-4 per server more than normal (depending on the server's skill and ability). I had a gentleman who is very unhappy that his drinks took nearly 10 minutes to come out (this is not an uncommon thing when a bar gets a surge of tickets). In a friendly conversational way, I explained to him that due to the surge of tables, the bartenders were overwhelmed and doing everything they could to make orders as fast as possible, and while he was waiting, could I get him a complimentary soft drink or some water? I was given a brief smile, and a no thank you (he was polite about it). His drinks were finally ready, I brought them out, and at about the halfway point on each drink I would ask if he would like another round so I could avoid the delay from the bar as much as possible. He was fine with that, he never had an empty glass waiting.

I warned him when the first drink came out that the kitchen was in the same way, and would he like to go ahead and order an appetizer now so I could get the order in quickly. He ordered our Ceviche del Mar, which I rang into the computer system. A while later I checked back when bringing him another drink and a glass of water (it was his second drink, and I usually always bring some water at that point) and found that a runner had run his ceviche out to him, and he was eating it. He was pleased with it, saying he had never had a shrimp based ceviche before and liked it. I got his food order and entered it into the computer.

Fast forward. His tenderloin dish came out via runner while I was taking drink orders for another of my tables (I had 7 tables at that point, and the dining area was packed full with people crowding the bar waiting for tables). I went over to check on him, and he informed me that his tenderloin was cooked incorrectly as it was too rare. So I apologized, asked him for a reference how much more it should be cooked so I can make sure the kitchen cooked the new one enough, and put in a rush order for his new tenderloin. It was an honest kitchen error, he wanted medium well and it came out more medium rare, but it took about another 15 minutes to get a fresh one out to him.

Fast forward again, another server had run his new tenderloin out, sans steak knife. So he flagged me down while I was carrying a tray and let me know he needed one, which I immediately handed off the tray and got him a knife. He was most unhappy that he now had to wait while his food lost heat for me to get him a steak knife. Interestingly, the rest of his party were quite happy and had no problems.

All said and done, end of the night, his bill (after picking up two other tabs) was a little over $346. He rounded the total up to $347, and left me a note saying that he appreciated that I was trying, but my service was terrible and that he shouldn't have to wait for drinks or food so long to come out, and his food wasn't prepared correctly, and that I wasn't on the ball enough to make sure he got a steak knife with his meal.



I know this man was close to being an "outlier" as you put it, but in this case three separate things out of my control were assessed to me. Now tell me, of his complaints, which exactly is my fault? The bar being swamped? The kitchen not correctly cooking his food? The runner not being attentive enough to make sure a steak knife came with the plate like they were supposed to? Most people who go out to eat are, forgive me for how harsh this sounds, too ignorant of the factors that are out of a server's control, and like to blame it on the server. The only things that a server can directly control are things they have their hands on. Everything else? The best I can do it warn you or try and work around it. Tell me how I am supposed to have a glass of water out to you in 15 seconds when some other server used all of the lemons and I have to go run into the cooler and find another bucket first before bringing you that water?


What you don't understand is that even if you didn't like the service, those people are still SERVING YOU. They are bringing you drinks, they are bringing you food, they are cleaning up after you, they still have to tip out the bartenders and host at the end of the night, regardless of whether or not you tipped them. This isn't a commission based system, it's not even remotely close to that. The restaurant still made a sale, you still paid them. That man that didn't tip me? He COST me $14.

When you don't leave a tip, you are in effect stealing from that server by costing them tip-out.

[smelvis]

Sorry, The restaurants need to pay a proper wage. I always tip and in the above scenario it would have been a basic tip. Because you were trying your best.

[captain53]

Originally Posted by KidRock

okay....I read this...I have several years in the pizza industry. Both corprate and private ownership. This workers are paid minimum wage and get dogged constantly. Most people who complain about slow service in my humbled thoughts have never worked a day in pizza. Do one 70-80 hour week and your view on food compeltly changes. I like working in pizza because the customers are awesome..just remeber no one is perfect...and if you think you are please join a pizza shop and do an 80 hour week.

I also cant stand general assumptions...not everyone who works in pizza is uneducated..really...im working on my masters...its a big shocker to folks who ask me...sorry if this seems like a rant..but behind every rant is truth.

So as I understand this the Pizza Delivery Guys work for irresponsible operations that do not know how to manage their business and do not pay their employees a living wage so therefore it is MY responsibility as a paying customer to make up for the drivers loss.

Don't worry I never have it delivered anymore because the pizza is not much good at any of the major delivery pizza places.

[Lumpold]

Originally Posted by Silound

What you don't understand is that even if you didn't like the service, those people are still SERVING YOU. They are bringing you drinks, they are bringing you food, they are cleaning up after you, they still have to tip out the bartenders and host at the end of the night, regardless of whether or not you tipped them. This isn't a commission based system, it's not even remotely close to that. The restaurant still made a sale, you still paid them. That man that didn't tip me? He COST me $14.

When you don't leave a tip, you are in effect stealing from that server by costing them tip-out.

That makes it sound like you have a fixed-rate tip-out to the bar and running staff... you had to pay out $15 to other staff for their service to him, but he only tipped you a buck? I'd have a word with your management? That sounds highly unfair. If you have a night of continually bad tippers (and I really hope you don't), do you have to go get money from the bank to afford the tip-outs? How does that work?

I admit, here in the UK, our way of working things is different. I have no problem with leaving a tip for staff, none at all, but if the service is shoddy, little or no tip. I admit, I wouldn't have screwed you over a wait on a busy night, a miscooked steak, and a missing steak knife... I might not have tipped you as much as if the steak was spot on first time, but I have worked in that kind of environment, so I understand there are things that happen.

If my barstaff got a small tip, because their busboy hadn't refilled the ice and straws, or had not replaced an empty spirit botte, that was passed on to the busboy by the %age tip-out system. Sure, the busboy might have cost the server £5 in possible tips, but the server would never be actually out of pocket.

Maybe I misunderstood your post

[Volusianator]

Unfortunately I had no idea that my OP was going to cause this much of a debate, I simply pointed out one issue I hate (the onion thing) and another that is in the control of the delivery person, both really I was just making in my opinion a little light humor.

That being said I need to say the following:

Originally Posted by Silound

Because unfortunately, the server can only do so much to make you happy. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of factors people grind against servers that they can't control.

Example from my closing shift Friday night:

Busy as hell, short wait at the door, understaffed on the floor, most servers have 5-7 tables, which is 2-4 per server more than normal (depending on the server's skill and ability). I had a gentleman who is very unhappy that his drinks took nearly 10 minutes to come out (this is not an uncommon thing when a bar gets a surge of tickets). In a friendly conversational way, I explained to him that due to the surge of tables, the bartenders were overwhelmed and doing everything they could to make orders as fast as possible, and while he was waiting, could I get him a complimentary soft drink or some water? I was given a brief smile, and a no thank you (he was polite about it). His drinks were finally ready, I brought them out, and at about the halfway point on each drink I would ask if he would like another round so I could avoid the delay from the bar as much as possible. He was fine with that, he never had an empty glass waiting.

I warned him when the first drink came out that the kitchen was in the same way, and would he like to go ahead and order an appetizer now so I could get the order in quickly. He ordered our Ceviche del Mar, which I rang into the computer system. A while later I checked back when bringing him another drink and a glass of water (it was his second drink, and I usually always bring some water at that point) and found that a runner had run his ceviche out to him, and he was eating it. He was pleased with it, saying he had never had a shrimp based ceviche before and liked it. I got his food order and entered it into the computer.

Fast forward. His tenderloin dish came out via runner while I was taking drink orders for another of my tables (I had 7 tables at that point, and the dining area was packed full with people crowding the bar waiting for tables). I went over to check on him, and he informed me that his tenderloin was cooked incorrectly as it was too rare. So I apologized, asked him for a reference how much more it should be cooked so I can make sure the kitchen cooked the new one enough, and put in a rush order for his new tenderloin. It was an honest kitchen error, he wanted medium well and it came out more medium rare, but it took about another 15 minutes to get a fresh one out to him.

Fast forward again, another server had run his new tenderloin out, sans steak knife. So he flagged me down while I was carrying a tray and let me know he needed one, which I immediately handed off the tray and got him a knife. He was most unhappy that he now had to wait while his food lost heat for me to get him a steak knife. Interestingly, the rest of his party were quite happy and had no problems.

All said and done, end of the night, his bill (after picking up two other tabs) was a little over $346. He rounded the total up to $347, and left me a note saying that he appreciated that I was trying, but my service was terrible and that he shouldn't have to wait for drinks or food so long to come out, and his food wasn't prepared correctly, and that I wasn't on the ball enough to make sure he got a steak knife with his meal.



I know this man was close to being an "outlier" as you put it, but in this case three separate things out of my control were assessed to me. Now tell me, of his complaints, which exactly is my fault? The bar being swamped? The kitchen not correctly cooking his food? The runner not being attentive enough to make sure a steak knife came with the plate like they were supposed to?

None. This guy was just 100% phucktard. If your account is accurate, and I'm not saying it isn't, this dude was just a pompus ass. I've NEVER held out on or downgraded a tip to the waitstaff based on the kitchen or bar.

Originally Posted by Silound

What you don't understand is that even if you didn't like the service, those people are still SERVING YOU. They are bringing you drinks, they are bringing you food, they are cleaning up after you, they still have to tip out the bartenders and host at the end of the night, regardless of whether or not you tipped them. This isn't a commission based system, it's not even remotely close to that. The restaurant still made a sale, you still paid them. That man that didn't tip me? He COST me $14.

When you don't leave a tip, you are in effect stealing from that server by costing them tip-out.

This on the other hand is an issue with the facilities management and their policy.

Playing Devils advocate, let's just say that your service was average at best or even subpar. Just because you are "serving me" doesn't mean you deserve a tip. I was always told that TIPS was an acronym for To Insure Proper Service. True or not, I'm going to believe that and I'll be damned if I'm going to tip someone simply because the service industry feels it's status quo to do so because you simply were there and brought my food/drinks out, in the end, that is your job. If your service was poor and it cost you money because you had to tip out other workers, then that's something you should think of while waiting on me, again, that is your job.

OK, so, like I said, the example above was playing Devils advocate, I'm not saying that poor service was what you gave, from what you said, none of that stuff was your fault. Again, the customer was an ass and the restaurant you work for should be ashamed of themselves for making you tip the hostess/bussboys. Have the chefs prepare a good meal, pay them well to do it, have the hostess be polite and courteous and pay them fairly, the bussboy should be paid fairly to do his job as well, then when it comes to the waitstaff, they get the tips, their the ones who "service" the customers, when all this is done, customers pay their bill, tell others how good it was and come back. The restaurant makes money and so do it's employees.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Silound

*condensed post*

Nah, guy was a douche, because you did several things to take care of him:

1. Even though it took nearly ten minutes to get his first drink out, you never let it go dry. Good service.
2. Recommended and quickly delivered an appetizer(can't be understated enough. I HATE when I order an appetizer and it gets there like two minutes before my meal). Good service.
3. When faced with a problem, quickly resolved it. Good service.

Doing all of this while doubling the amount of tables you normally wait on. Again, this guy was a douche. He was even more of a douche because he wanted a perfectly good steak cooked medium-well...

My last restaurant experience was not a pleasant one as a direct result of the server, and I still tipped her (not because I wanted to, but for fear of getting the stink-eye from my fiancé). She even asked why I tipped her, and she's much more in line with your line of thinking than mine.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Silound

When you don't leave a tip, you are in effect stealing from that server by costing them tip-out.

Originally Posted by Volusianator

If your service was poor and it cost you money because you had to tip out other workers, then that's something you should think of while waiting on me, again, that is your job.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.

[md4958]

Originally Posted by Silound

B
What you don't understand is that even if you didn't like the service, those people are still SERVING YOU. They are bringing you drinks, they are bringing you food, they are cleaning up after you, they still have to tip out the bartenders and host at the end of the night, regardless of whether or not you tipped them. This isn't a commission based system, it's not even remotely close to that. The restaurant still made a sale, you still paid them. That man that didn't tip me? He COST me $14.

When you don't leave a tip, you are in effect stealing from that server by costing them tip-out.

Ive pretty much stayed out of this discussion because I have mixed feelings on this subject.

To quote Steve Martin in My Blue Heaven- "I dont believe in tipping, I believe in over-tipping".

Best service I ever received, from a waiter at Kowloon Restaurant (Chinese), Saugus, MA 1999. Food and drink total- about $23. Tip- $25. (yes, our server made our dining experience THAT memorable)

Worst service Friendlies Restaurant, Enfield, CT- February 2011 about 2pm. Got seated immediately as it was after lunch and the crow was thin. Waitress finally came over after 10 minutes and took our drink, appetizer, and entree orders (we waited long enough and had a starving 4 year old). Chocolate milk for my son, and ice water for my wife appeared after about 10 minutes, my strawberry fribble (like a milkshake) still hadnt come.

An HOUR later, I finally asked the hostess if our food and my shake was ready yet. She (the hostess mind you) brought out our appetizers and they were ICE COLD. My fribble still nowhere to be seen. I allowed my 4 year old to dig into a quesedilla and told my wife I was going to speak to the manager. Went up to the front and asked for the manager and discreetly told him that we had been waiting an hour for our appetizers, and when they came out they were cold. The manager just kinda shrugged. So at that, I told him we were leaving. I was so pissed off that the manager didnt even apologize we walked out without paying the tab.

Now Ive worked in the food industry my entire life, I know when its a kitchen issue. Cold food is most certainty NOT the fault of the kitchen. Had the food been slow, but piping hot, I wouldnt have fretted. But I know cold food means the server left it sitting under the lights so long that even the heat lamps couldnt help. I should also note that as we were being seated I overheard a woman commenting to her son in the booth behind us "an hour wait for a freaking sandwich is ridiculous." This appeared to be a common theme with our waitress.

So according to your logic I still should have left a tip, because the $hitty waitress had to tip out the busboy???

And I dont know about the restaurant you work at, but every restaurant that I know of tip outs are based on percentages, 10% busboy, 15-20% bartender is the standard around this area. So if the server has a bad night tip wise they arent taking money out of their pockets to tip out. I believe Lumpy was saying something similar.

The actual term is "Gratuity", a "tip" is a thank-you for good service. It should not be expected for lousy service. All servers have off days, where they just arent up to snuff, but why is that my problem as a customer?

At the bakery and caffe I have some customers that tip religiously, and some dont. I dont expect them to, unless they are provided with exceptional service, which I try to insist on. And still I dont get upset if they dont tip. I dont pay my employees server wage so anything extra is all gravy. And I dont keep tips anyway, it goes into the tip bucket and the girls split it up.

[lostark374]

Originally Posted by Silound

Because unfortunately, the server can only do so much to make you happy. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of factors people grind against servers that they can't control.

Example from my closing shift Friday night:

Busy as hell, short wait at the door, understaffed on the floor, most servers have 5-7 tables, which is 2-4 per server more than normal (depending on the server's skill and ability). I had a gentleman who is very unhappy that his drinks took nearly 10 minutes to come out (this is not an uncommon thing when a bar gets a surge of tickets). In a friendly conversational way, I explained to him that due to the surge of tables, the bartenders were overwhelmed and doing everything they could to make orders as fast as possible, and while he was waiting, could I get him a complimentary soft drink or some water? I was given a brief smile, and a no thank you (he was polite about it). His drinks were finally ready, I brought them out, and at about the halfway point on each drink I would ask if he would like another round so I could avoid the delay from the bar as much as possible. He was fine with that, he never had an empty glass waiting.

I warned him when the first drink came out that the kitchen was in the same way, and would he like to go ahead and order an appetizer now so I could get the order in quickly. He ordered our Ceviche del Mar, which I rang into the computer system. A while later I checked back when bringing him another drink and a glass of water (it was his second drink, and I usually always bring some water at that point) and found that a runner had run his ceviche out to him, and he was eating it. He was pleased with it, saying he had never had a shrimp based ceviche before and liked it. I got his food order and entered it into the computer.

Fast forward. His tenderloin dish came out via runner while I was taking drink orders for another of my tables (I had 7 tables at that point, and the dining area was packed full with people crowding the bar waiting for tables). I went over to check on him, and he informed me that his tenderloin was cooked incorrectly as it was too rare. So I apologized, asked him for a reference how much more it should be cooked so I can make sure the kitchen cooked the new one enough, and put in a rush order for his new tenderloin. It was an honest kitchen error, he wanted medium well and it came out more medium rare, but it took about another 15 minutes to get a fresh one out to him.

Fast forward again, another server had run his new tenderloin out, sans steak knife. So he flagged me down while I was carrying a tray and let me know he needed one, which I immediately handed off the tray and got him a knife. He was most unhappy that he now had to wait while his food lost heat for me to get him a steak knife. Interestingly, the rest of his party were quite happy and had no problems.

All said and done, end of the night, his bill (after picking up two other tabs) was a little over $346. He rounded the total up to $347, and left me a note saying that he appreciated that I was trying, but my service was terrible and that he shouldn't have to wait for drinks or food so long to come out, and his food wasn't prepared correctly, and that I wasn't on the ball enough to make sure he got a steak knife with his meal.



I know this man was close to being an "outlier" as you put it, but in this case three separate things out of my control were assessed to me. Now tell me, of his complaints, which exactly is my fault? The bar being swamped? The kitchen not correctly cooking his food? The runner not being attentive enough to make sure a steak knife came with the plate like they were supposed to? Most people who go out to eat are, forgive me for how harsh this sounds, too ignorant of the factors that are out of a server's control, and like to blame it on the server. The only things that a server can directly control are things they have their hands on. Everything else? The best I can do it warn you or try and work around it. Tell me how I am supposed to have a glass of water out to you in 15 seconds when some other server used all of the lemons and I have to go run into the cooler and find another bucket first before bringing you that water?


What you don't understand is that even if you didn't like the service, those people are still SERVING YOU. They are bringing you drinks, they are bringing you food, they are cleaning up after you, they still have to tip out the bartenders and host at the end of the night, regardless of whether or not you tipped them. This isn't a commission based system, it's not even remotely close to that. The restaurant still made a sale, you still paid them. That man that didn't tip me? He COST me $14.

When you don't leave a tip, you are in effect stealing from that server by costing them tip-out.

i understand what you are saying here. and yes I work in the service industry also.

If I were you i would address several of these issues.

first the the starting round of drinks were out of your control and the fact that you addressed it by being prompt on the second and continuing rounds was well played but i would take this up with your manager that possibly they need more bar staff or another dedicated bartenter(s) for just the servers.


second.
his steak being incorrectly prepared again not your fault, did you remove the dish from the table? was the Knife on the dish? if yes then you knew he did not have a knife. if you are going to rely on runners and or other servers to serve your customers then you should have replaced his table setting before his replacement dish arrived. (you had 15 minutes)

third.
seems you work in a high volume resturant. if you have a mandatory tip out to the people helping you then in fact they are serving you as well as the customers and if my income reflects them and they are dropping the ball i would sure as hell be addressing it with them and there income would reflect it. if i was forced to tip them a percentage of the sale and not a percentage of the tip i would address that with the manager(s).


did you explain this to the floor manager? did you request a comp of any kind to the table? round of drinks, desert?


problems will come up thats a fact. its how they are handled that makes for great service. this guy was probably a tough customer to begin with and probably not a big tipper to begin with because even horrible service with me will still get you 15%

i live off of tips and i tip well, usually tip too well, up to (50% on food and 75% on drinks) but to get almost nothing on a $350 ticket is a real kick in the nuts i would have gone off on the staff that was helping me.