NFL - Page 5

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

*cough*Marlins*cough*

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

You can't compare viewer ship or attendance between baseball and football. The way in which their season and playoffs are structured is to different. And plenty of people are watching baseball, buying merchandise, and going to games.

There's no direct comparison, but looking for some sort of breakdown I came across this doozy. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that people aren't watching baseball or going to games. I'm saying that there's a market there for a lot more people to watch baseball, attend games and buy merchandise, but because of the economics of baseball in its current format, restricts that untapped market.

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers. Even the baseball minimum salary is much larger

That's because football rosters are twice the size of football rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

That's because football rosters are twice the size of football rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

You'd be surprised, after the top 10 guys the money falls off pretty fast. Elite players compared to elite players and its not even close. Even situational relievers and pinch hitters make significantly more than players who play significant rolls on NFL rosters.

VirtualSmitty · 03-14-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

*cough*Marlins*cough*

There's no direct comparison, but looking for some sort of breakdown I came across this doozy. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that people aren't watching baseball or going to games. I'm saying that there's a market there for a lot more people to watch baseball, attend games and buy merchandise, but because of the economics of baseball in its current format, restricts that untapped market.

That's because football rosters are twice the size of football rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

The Marlins have a good team. In fact they usually are competitive, in a difficult division, so whats your point? It's the best example of team with no fan base thats good.

And your roster argument doesn't stack up. As said above, elite MLB players make much more than their NFL counterparts. Plus, unlike the NFL, there are three tiers of minor leagues players usually go through to get to the big show. A,AA, and AAA all have a full roster of players and coaches, and while they don't make the major league minimum they do earn a decent salary. When you factor in that cost, the operating overhead in terms of payroll is much higher than any NFL team, which just pulls talent straight from college. Plus these days most teams own and operate camps in other countries to scout talent. So the fact that baseball players are so much better compensated is indeed quite impressive when you think about it

Also, the WS ratings only go to show there is comparing television ratings between baseball and football. The superbowl might as well be a holiday, everybody watches regardless of who they root for. Baseball is much more regional, I watch the superbowl for the commercials, but I only caught two games of WS because I didn't care much about either team. If the Yankees and Cubs played in a WS they would blow the superbowl ratings out of the water.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

The Marlins have a good team. In fact they usually are competitive, in a difficult division, so whats your point?

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

And I responded:

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Originally Posted by Stephen

*cough*Marlins*cough*

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

And your roster argument doesn't stack up. As said above, elite MLB players make much more than their NFL counterparts.

When did I say otherwise? I simply wondered aloud (or more specifically at the end of a post rhetorically) how the average MLB salary would stack up against the top 25 players of an NFL squad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Plus, unlike the NFL, there are three tiers of minor leagues players usually go through to get to the big show. A,AA, and AAA all have a full roster of players and coaches, and while they don't make the major league minimum they do earn a decent salary. When you factor in that cost, the operating overhead in terms of payroll is much higher than any NFL team, which just pulls talent straight from college. Plus these days most teams own and operate camps in other countries to scout talent.

Completely irrelevant to a MLB players average salary.

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

So the fact that baseball players are so much better compensated is indeed quite impressive when you think about it

Not really. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

VirtualSmitty · 03-14-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

You said:

And I responded:

When did I say otherwise? I simply wondered aloud (or more specifically at the end of a post rhetorically) how the average MLB salary would stack up against the top 25 players of an NFL squad.

Completely irrelevant to a MLB players average salary.

Not really. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

I thought you were implying the Marlins were bad. And the minor leagues are relevant as they are part of the MLB. If your not impressed by how well compensated baseball players are based on all the additional overhead MLB teams face that NFLs don't , that's your opinion. But the fact remains that baseball is very profitable, compensates it's players better than the NFL and is thriving despite all the setbacks of the last 20 years.

yourchoice · 03-14-2011, 01:21 PM

I'm enjoying the discussion. Very interesting.

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

If the Yankees and Cubs played in a WS they would blow the superbowl ratings out of the water.

No way. Aside from the Superbowl, I'd guess at least a half dozen other football games (be it regular season, or playoffs - if not more) would beat any World Series game....but definitely the Superbowl.

As for the topic...for a long time I believed that a capitalist structure was better...you should be paid as much someone else thinks your skills are worth.

But...for sports leagues to thrive as a whole, I think some sort of structure is needed. For the NHL to survive, they needed to take drastic measures, and they did. I think the NBA will have to do something similar (I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't play a game next year). The one thing all leagues with a cap have is both a ceiling and a floor. That's what makes a parity driven cap work. Could baseball be improved with a cap like that? Honestly, I think so...and I'm a Phillies fan!

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 01:23 PM

Just for kicks, I looked up the average starting salary for a MLB player here, and picked a random team (New Orleans Saints; found here) and added up the salaries of the top 25 players. Came to $99.59007 million (only added it up once, could be incorrect). Divided that by 25, and got $3.98 million. I'm positive it's different for different teams, just wanted to throw that out there.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 01:32 PM

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Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

If the Yankees and Cubs played in a WS they would blow the superbowl ratings out of the water.

Pfft. This is by far the most ridiculous post in this thread...

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Just for kicks, I looked up the average starting salary for a MLB player here, and picked a random team (New Orleans Saints; found here) and added up the salaries of the top 25 players. Came to $99.59007 million (only added it up once, could be incorrect). Divided that by 25, and got $3.98 million. I'm positive it's different for different teams, just wanted to throw that out there.

Try your theory with the Yankees vs. Packers.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourchoice

I'm enjoying the discussion. Very interesting.

No way. Aside from the Superbowl, I'd guess at least a half dozen other football games (be it regular season, or playoffs - if not more) would beat any World Series game....but definitely the Superbowl.

The clinching game of the World Series this past season barely beat out a Monday Night Football regular season game. Even if a Cubs/Yankees series were to go six games, I doubt their combined viewership would equal that of the Super Bowl.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by chippewastud79

Try your theory with the Yankees vs. Packers.

Well since the top four paid players in all of baseball play for the Yankees, me thinks that would skew the bell curve some.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 01:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Stephen

Well since the top four paid players in all of baseball play for the Yankees, me thinks that would skew the bell curve some.

Kind of like including the Pirates in an average when the base salaries for NFL players is severely more slotted than baseball. Minimum wage isn't close, and top end is even more glaring. Also, this doesn't even factor that MLB contracts are guaranteed for the life of the contract, NFL salaries are terminated on a whim with not a single dollar spent after a player is released or injured.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 02:00 PM

Smitty's initial point that I took interest in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers.

My reply:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

That's because football rosters are twice the size of baseball rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

Kind of like including the Pirates in an average when the base salaries for NFL players is severely more slotted than baseball. Minimum wage isn't close, and top end is even more glaring. Also, this doesn't even factor that MLB contracts are guaranteed for the life of the contract, NFL salaries are terminated on a whim with not a single dollar spent after a player is released or injured.

I'm not arguing that MLB doesn't have a higher floor or a higher ceiling.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 02:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm not arguing that MLB doesn't have a higher floor or a higher ceiling.

I understand, but the average salary is hardly as cut and dry as you make it/believe. Average career, total contract, injury risk, certain teams payroll etc. all make the 'average salary' much cloudier than it is in regard internet searchable numbers. NFL teams have relatively similar payrolls, MLB teams vary so much and teams all spend their money differently.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Just for kicks, I looked up the average starting salary for a MLB player here, and picked a random team (New Orleans Saints; found here) and added up the salaries of the top 25 players. Came to $99.59007 million (only added it up once, could be incorrect). Divided that by 25, and got $3.98 million. I'm positive it's different for different teams, just wanted to throw that out there.

Forgot to include the link for the Saints salary; sorry.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

I understand, but the average salary is hardly as cut and dry as you make it/believe. Average career, total contract, injury risk, certain teams payroll etc. all make the 'average salary' much cloudier than it is in regard internet searchable numbers. NFL teams have relatively similar payrolls, MLB teams vary so much and teams all spend their money differently.

Why is it you're trying to lead me down a path that I'm not arguing? I'm not talking about career earnings or injury risks. Again, here's the statement that I (reluctantly) replied to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player

VirtualSmitty · 03-14-2011, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Smitty's initial point that I took interest in.

My reply:

I'm not arguing that MLB doesn't have a higher floor or a higher ceiling.

Ah, but your missing my point about the minors. Aside from the 25 man roster that, each MLB team is also responsible for three other 25 man roster, so every MLB team has far more players to manage on a whole.

And my Yankees/Cubs posts was the second most ridiculous thing posted. Someone chimed in earlier with an ever so insightful comment that no one watched baseball anymore, figured I might as well state something as ridiculous while the thread remained civil

As far as the salary talks, it's just a point to show that the sport is doing well. The MLB operates much differently than the NFL, the fact that they are still able to be successful without having to resort to the NFLs brand of sports socialism is a pretty worthy achievement since most other sports in this country seem to be going down that road unfortunately. All sports are a business and they should operate like any other business in this country imho. If a team or league can't cut it, it should fail

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Forgot to include the link for the Saints salary; sorry.

Your link for the Saints includes their signing bonuses, which are sometimes prorated and included as roster bonuses that can be lost if a player is cut. It also includes 61 players instead of the roster of 53. For the full 61 players, assuming they made their base salary, which at least 8 of them didn't, the average is ~1.152 Million. Top 25 players average salary ~$2.012 million. If you add the signing bonuses, roster bonuses and incentives that may or may not have been reached assuming a player stays healthy, and doesn't get cut, yes, the salaries appear to be close. But look a little deeper and it is less than a third of the money on average for salary vs. salary.

Edit: Also of note, the third 'best' player on the Saints makes about the average of any MLB player. Drew Brees is arguably one of the top 5 QB's in the game, the face of a franchise, and perhaps the league and makes about $1 million more than the average MLB baseball player.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Ah, but your missing my point about the minors. Aside from the 25 man roster that, each MLB team is also responsible for three other 25 man roster, so every MLB team has far more players to manage on a whole.

Don't most MLB teams have more than one A/AA club? Not trying to be a smartass, just been awhile since I followed the minor's closely...

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

And my Yankees/Cubs posts was the second most ridiculous thing posted. Someone chimed in earlier with an ever so insightful comment that no one watched baseball anymore, figured I might as well state something as ridiculous while the thread remained civil

If this thread does turn sour, I assure you it won't be by my doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

As far as the salary talks, it's just a point to show that the sport is doing well. The MLB operates much differently than the NFL, the fact that they are still able to be successful without having to resort to the NFLs brand of sports socialism is a pretty worthy achievement since most other sports in this country seem to be going down that road unfortunately. All sports are a business and they should operate like any other business in this country imho. If a team or league can't cut it, it should fail

All I can say to that is this:

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Originally Posted by Stephen

MLB on the other hand is 30 separate businesses acting in their own best interests instead of what's best for MLB.

It's my opinion that while each franchise has a seperate owner, the business is MLB (or NFL/NBA/NHL). You see them as a separate entity. That seem about right?

Bruins Fan · 03-14-2011, 02:42 PM

If a baseball player signs a three year three million dollar contract,he is going to get all his money.
If an NFL player signs the same deal he may get cut and get nowhere near what he signed for.
The NFL screws players all the time.

03-14-2011, 01:23 PM	#87
Stephen Sultan of Cigars Join Date: Jan 2011 First Name: Stephen Location: Where the Pony Express began and Jesse James ended. Posts: 1,582 Trading: (18)	Re: NFL Just for kicks, I looked up the average starting salary for a MLB player here, and picked a random team (New Orleans Saints; found here) and added up the salaries of the top 25 players. Came to $99.59007 million (only added it up once, could be incorrect). Divided that by 25, and got $3.98 million. I'm positive it's different for different teams, just wanted to throw that out there.

03-14-2011, 02:42 PM	#100
Bruins Fan Hooper drives the boat. Join Date: May 2009 First Name: John Location: Cape Cod Posts: 1,359 Trading: (0)	Re: NFL If a baseball player signs a three year three million dollar contract,he is going to get all his money. If an NFL player signs the same deal he may get cut and get nowhere near what he signed for. The NFL screws players all the time. __________________ Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women.