How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post

Nice thread, some decent research, but hardly scientific. This is what I would call a research based guess.

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

Nice thread, some decent research, but hardly scientific. This is what I would call a research based guess.

I am unsure what you mean by a research based guess?

Care to clarify

Originally Posted by SilverFox

I am unsure what you mean by a research based guess?

Care to clarify

This has hardly considered all of the variables with a scientific and open mind. No experiments were done in succession to address all of our concerns. Only one experiment is cited relating to only a specific portion of the variables involved. Thus, this is neither scientific experimentation, nor complete scientific research. It is instead a guess with some light research.

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

This has hardly considered all of the variables with a scientific and open mind.

What variables would those be?

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

No experiments were done in succession to address all of our concerns.

What concerns are you alluding too?

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

Only one experiment is cited relating to only a specific portion of the variables involved.

Again I am unsure as to the variables that you are referring too but I think that the main concern is the mortality/temperature information that has been extensively experimented.

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

Thus, this is neither scientific experimentation, nor complete scientific research. It is instead a guess with some light research.

I would however disagree that this is a guess, it is rather an application of the findings of some very extensive research, and so far the results have been flawless in my circumstances, there was no intent to provide absolute irrefutable process to anyone but rather a tried and true process that has been tested by many and shown to be effective. I have first hand experience in cigar beetles and the damage that they can cause and have tried to provide my fellow cigar smokers with the benefit of my research and the process used. But we are all entitled to our opinions and you have expressed yours, my apologies if you find this information to be ill advised and poorly thought out. I would be greatly appreciative if you have better information to assist in the irradication of beetle infestations in my cigars, until then I will rely on the process I have indicated as it has proven to be effective (at least in my circumstances)

Originally Posted by SilverFox

What variables would those be?



What concerns are you alluding too?



Again I am unsure as to the variables that you are referring too but I think that the main concern is the mortality/temperature information that has been extensively experimented.



I would however disagree that this is a guess, it is rather an application of the findings of some very extensive research, and so far the results have been flawless in my circumstances, there was no intent to provide absolute irrefutable process to anyone but rather a tried and true process that has been tested by many and shown to be effective. I have first hand experience in cigar beetles and the damage that they can cause and have tried to provide my fellow cigar smokers with the benefit of my research and the process used. But we are all entitled to our opinions and you have expressed yours, my apologies if you find this information to be ill advised and poorly thought out. I would be greatly appreciative if you have better information to assist in the irradication of beetle infestations in my cigars, until then I will rely on the process I have indicated as it has proven to be effective (at least in my circumstances)

The other concerns are how the freezing processes affect the cigars, including flavor, significant subsets of flavor, during smoking construction, wrapper oil levels, persistent long term storage durability, etc. If all we cared about was killing beetles, we could just throw them in the freezer naked and call it good. Because you don't do this, obviously you consider that this might have some adverse affects on the cigar. However, you haven't any scientific information about these affects, and how many process variables would impact things that are important to a cigar smoker.

The variables I would point out are: mil of plastic used to contain cigars, sealing method of plastic container, RH of cigar environment when entered into container, swell/shrink of cigar cross-sectional area, etc etc.

Many people will tell you that the freezing will ruin the taste of the cigars. I have my opinion and that is there is no discernable difference. In addition I have bombed, gifted, traded, sold several hundred cigars to members of this board and others and not one has told me that the cigar tasted like it was "frozen" opinions will vary on this but there is little if any imperical evidence either way.

It is unrealistic to expect that someone would say a cigar tasted like it was frozen, as I wouldn't expect that many cigar smokers have participated in scientific experiments to compare the flavor of two otherwise comparable cigars. However, you could pretty easily illicit feedback about how the cigar tasted as compared with other cigars that person has smoked, but without more stringent scientific controls, this would be little more than a survey.

This is why I say we are missing some of the science here. You present some scientific, research based information, but you also interject your opinion without so much as a qualification. Have you ever frozen half a box and not the other half and traded off smokes between the two sets? It is hardly the kind of thing that I would gloss over in a scientific analysis.

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

It is unrealistic to expect that someone would say a cigar tasted like it was frozen, as I wouldn't expect that many cigar smokers have participated in scientific experiments to compare the flavor of two otherwise comparable cigars. However, you could pretty easily illicit feedback about how the cigar tasted as compared with other cigars that person has smoked, but without more stringent scientific controls, this would be little more than a survey.

This is why I say we are missing some of the science here. You present some scientific, research based information, but you also interject your opinion without so much as a qualification. Have you ever frozen half a box and not the other half and traded off smokes between the two sets? It is hardly the kind of thing that I would gloss over in a scientific analysis.

If you have smoked any Cuban cigars shipped after 2005 you have smoked sticks that have been frozen. Habanos SA started freezing cigars circa 2005 on a semi regular basis and now freezes all warehoused cigars.

As I have mentioned in prior posts I have given out 100s if not closer to 1,000 cigars and each and every one of them has been frozen. I have done trades of close to 300 cigars all which have been frozen. These sticks have gone out to over 100 different people and I have not as yet had a person note that the cigar tasted different from freezing.

I have been freezing my cigars for going on three years and have frozen cigars up to 15 years old and had no adverse effects on over 3,000 cigars of various ages, sizes, marca's and vitolas. I have not had one single cigar burst or swell, dehydrate or over humidify.

You are completely correct that I have not undertaken a full scientific analysis however that can be said about a myriad of things within this hobby

What RH is optimal for storage cigars 60% 65% 70% 75% ?? - I know people that store in all of these ranges.

Is storage RH also optimal smoking RH - dry boxers will say no others yes, perhaps others even maintain a smoking box at a different RH than there storage facilities.

What are the long term impacts of storing in a Vino or a Cooler vs a true spanish cedar humidor??? Will the plastic leech and create aging/flavor issues.

What about temperature fluctations?

Changes in baromtric pressure??

Should different marcas be stored and aged together?

What is the best approach for aging..........air tight or circulating air?

What speed is optimal for the best flavor profile for a cigar and is it different for different Vitola's or Marca's?

Is passive or active humidification better for your cigars?

Is distilled water absolutely required for humidification?

Will propylene glycol impart flavors to your cigars?

Is patching a cigar with arabic gum or other cigar glues safe for consumption?

How long is too long for a cigar to be in transit?

How long should a cigar rest?

What is the optimal aging period for a cigar?


I guess what I am trying to get at is there is a myriad of things that are subjective in this hobby and while I fully agree with you that the conditions and assessment of freezing cigars is not 100% emperical I would question your motivation for your posts, is there something of value you want to be addressed or clarified or is it merely being antogonistic.

I did not profess this to be an emperical scientific study but rather a tried and tested method of preventing cigar beetle infestation. If your concern over flavor change is greater than your concern over beetles then by all means don't freeze.

For my collection I freeze them all, and it gives me peace of mind........particularly having had sticks with beetles in them in three occasions, I have far too much money tied up in my sticks and no personal observations that freezing is bad to risk it.

[Old Sailor]

Originally Posted by RaiderinKS

Nice thread, some decent research, but hardly scientific. This is what I would call a research based guess.

Now I may be wrong, but no where has Shawn stated that this was based on scientific research, just the science behind it as posted by others. If you want scientific research data, maybe someone could do a year long study on the variables, then post results. The science I see behind his posts are derived from the cycle of eggs to full hatch killing, someone must have done this part, other wise it would not have been posted as an article in a magazine.

Originally Posted by SilverFox

If you have smoked any Cuban cigars shipped after 2005 you have smoked sticks that have been frozen. Habanos SA started freezing cigars circa 2005 on a semi regular basis and now freezes all warehoused cigars.

As I have mentioned in prior posts I have given out 100s if not closer to 1,000 cigars and each and every one of them has been frozen. I have done trades of close to 300 cigars all which have been frozen. These sticks have gone out to over 100 different people and I have not as yet had a person note that the cigar tasted different from freezing.

I have been freezing my cigars for going on three years and have frozen cigars up to 15 years old and had no adverse effects on over 3,000 cigars of various ages, sizes, marca's and vitolas. I have not had one single cigar burst or swell, dehydrate or over humidify.

You are completely correct that I have not undertaken a full scientific analysis however that can be said about a myriad of things within this hobby

What RH is optimal for storage cigars 60% 65% 70% 75% ?? - I know people that store in all of these ranges.

Is storage RH also optimal smoking RH - dry boxers will say no others yes, perhaps others even maintain a smoking box at a different RH than there storage facilities.

What are the long term impacts of storing in a Vino or a Cooler vs a true spanish cedar humidor??? Will the plastic leech and create aging/flavor issues.

What about temperature fluctations?

Changes in baromtric pressure??

Should different marcas be stored and aged together?

What is the best approach for aging..........air tight or circulating air?

What speed is optimal for the best flavor profile for a cigar and is it different for different Vitola's or Marca's?

Is passive or active humidification better for your cigars?

Is distilled water absolutely required for humidification?

Will propylene glycol impart flavors to your cigars?

Is patching a cigar with arabic gum or other cigar glues safe for consumption?

How long is too long for a cigar to be in transit?

How long should a cigar rest?

What is the optimal aging period for a cigar?


I guess what I am trying to get at is there is a myriad of things that are subjective in this hobby and while I fully agree with you that the conditions and assessment of freezing cigars is not 100% emperical I would question your motivation for your posts, is there something of value you want to be addressed or clarified or is it merely being antogonistic.

I did not profess this to be an emperical scientific study but rather a tried and tested method of preventing cigar beetle infestation. If your concern over flavor change is greater than your concern over beetles then by all means don't freeze.

For my collection I freeze them all, and it gives me peace of mind........particularly having had sticks with beetles in them in three occasions, I have far too much money tied up in my sticks and no personal observations that freezing is bad to risk it.

I guess some of the information you have just posted is more like it. On the other hand, I hate it when I see these kinds of threads without the counterpoint. No offense to you or anyone else that posts this kind of thread, but I think it is good to have some counterpoints to keep things objective.

I know someone will probably come behind me and say that I am just being a ####, but I think it is a valid proposition.

[kelmac07]

Awesome information in this thread!!! Thanks guys.

[wayner123]

Do you have any info that shows how long a beetle (larva or other stage) can remain dormant?

I don't know if the correct place to post, but here it goes. I think I may have beetles, I have smoked a couple of sticks lately that were very soft, the ashes dropped quicker than normal, and I have noticed what look like little tunnels in the ashes or burned part of cigar. The humidors are kept around 68% rh. The temp stays around 77 or 78, it's too expenseve to cool the house any cooler. Could these be bugs, or is it a hummidity problem?
Thanks for any help and advice.

[Old Sailor]

Originally Posted by bdcigarsmoker

I don't know if the correct place to post, but here it goes. I think I may have beetles, I have smoked a couple of sticks lately that were very soft, the ashes dropped quicker than normal, and I have noticed what look like little tunnels in the ashes or burned part of cigar. The humidors are kept around 68% rh. The temp stays around 77 or 78, it's too expenseve to cool the house any cooler. Could these be bugs, or is it a hummidity problem?
Thanks for any help and advice.

Take cigars and tap the foot over white paper, if anything comes out looking like very fine black pepper, you have beetles.

[massphatness]

Freezer bags.

Luxury or necessity?

Plz advise.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Old Sailor

Take cigars and tap the foot over white paper, if anything comes out looking like very fine black pepper, you have beetles.

Thanks, going to try right now, hope it's not bad news.

After reading this and looking at the pictures my cigars ended up in the fridge to chill, then on to the freezer.

[D. Generate]

Time for more anecdotal evidence to take or leave at your discretion.

When I lived in the States I had proper climate control in the house. Here in London that is an exceedingly difficult task. I never had a beetle outbreak in the States. Here it is an annual thing even with having wine coolerdors now.

Mr. Italy says what I've heard in Italy and Spain but I've had boxes from both countries that have had beetles in them. FWIW I have no doubt they take precautions but I doubt the efficacy of them.

I now freeze everything. I've still run into the occasional problem but I now also isolate and quarantine everything so I can nip it in the bud. I honestly don't know if it's just from being over here and buying at shops that has caused the problem or just bad luck. I think the wine coolerdors rules out excessive temps but I've still come across them. The past two and a half years has been the most frustrating in my smoking life.

My two pence: If you're buying anywhere in Europe then freeze. And watch them like a hawk.

Incidentally I have yet to tell a difference between one frozen and properly restored and one fresh - or one that I've had from the States that never saw a freezer.

[McSmokey]

great information i may start freezing my sticks as well

[mravery]

Ok guys,

This thread has scared the crap out of me.....

What would anyone guess is the percentage of infected cigars (pull a number out of you A$$).....

Are all the large manufacturers freezing their stock before they ship?

Right after I read it, I went and checked all of my sticks....... I had plans on buying some very expensive boxes and store them unopened..... but now, I guess I need to open them and check then from time to time even if I freeze them first..

I would like to hear from some of the other Florida guys in regards to the problems (if any) that they have had....

Cheers
Mark

Would it be safe to assume that if I freeze 100% of everything that is put into my standard non-cooled humidor cabinet, that my everyday storage temperature would not be nearly as big of a concern? I also live in Florida and do not want to spend the $$ to keep the house at 70 Degrees all day. The temperature while I'm at work will raise to about 77-78 during the day.