stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet - Page 3

02-23-2009, 12:44 AM

Legend, i'd be interested in participating in that little experiment of yours.
Although i find it hard to believe that b&m's have better sticks than online retailers, i would be interested in doing a side by side comparison and judging from their.

SeanGAR · 02-23-2009, 06:28 AM

Here is the statistical table for a 2 tailed paired forced choice preference test, which is what you are planning if you give 2 different cigars to people and ask which they prefer (and don't take no preference as an answer).

As you can see, it is not vaid to run the experiment with 6 of fewer observations and that you need more than 8 observations so you don't require 100% agreement. We never run these tests with less than 72 observations if the data are important. But for the sake of argument, if you have 25 observations (i.e., 25 different people smoked the cigars and gave you their preference), 18 of them would have to prefer one of the 2 smokes for the difference to be significant at the 5% level.

And you would need to run the experiment using a number of different comparisons.

I did something similar when I ran an accelerated aging experiment several years ago. I asked people to smoke the cigars side by side, and compare them as the burned down. I did learn that you need to find people who are motivated and who have palates that you can trust.

Kreth · 02-23-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

I think an asylum testing would be fun. Let's agree on a stick. I'll pay for it. Ship to 6 guys. 2 who think its bull. 2 who agree with me and 2 who think it could be either way. You have to smoke them side by side and I'll remove the original wrapper and put on a number.

I'll take that action. I'll argue that a Padron 1926 and Opus X will taste identical whether from a B&M or Internet retailer...

02-23-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kreth

I'll take that action. I'll argue that a Padron 1926 and Opus X will taste identical whether from a B&M or Internet retailer...

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

Kreth · 02-23-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

Speaking of RP, I have had the Vintage 90 in the same vitola from my local B&M (not a large shop by any means), and CI. Just a noob's opinion here, but I didn't notice any difference.

icehog3 · 02-23-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Whoa. Who said anything about scraps? Again. Not saying even significantly better. Just noticeable. And consistant. Again the internet big guys cigars aren't bad. Just not as good as the local.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Botl had gone to Honduras and Dominican republic and reported that locals(workers at the factories) had stated that inferior tobacco and piles left laying around in the factory were for internet cigars.

Apologies, you did not use the word "scraps". You said "piles (of tobacco) left laying around the factory".

Smokin Gator · 02-23-2009, 09:56 AM

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

icehog3 · 02-23-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Gator

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.
You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

Agreed 100%.

BlackIrish · 02-23-2009, 10:11 AM

You know, the idea of sitting around with some buddies and doing a B&M vs internet herf seems fun. Not because it would have any statistical significance (I deal with surveys and statistical data for a living, and the amount of care that you'd need to take in designing a proper study is enormous), but because it would just be fun.

I'm actually curious about the premise: doesn't it make more sense for manufacturers to send their better product to their biggest and most powerful customers (the internet retailers) rather than the highly dispersed local B&Ms?

Please understand that I'm not disparaging B&Ms -- many of the proprietors are enormously knowledgeable and very influential in customers' purchasing decisions. But they probably sell only a fraction of the volume of the big internet outlets. I'd think that if the internet outlets were getting lower quality stuff, they could throw their weight around a lot more.

Just a question . . .

BlackIrish · 02-23-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

I'll take that action.

02-23-2009, 10:15 AM

I'm in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

jledou · 02-23-2009, 10:17 AM

IMO, a cigar is a cigar and yes all of the factors may change the taste, but there have been times that one out of a box will taste different from the rest correct?

That being said, I will go to the B&M to try a cigar and if I like it a lot I will order a box from the internet. If I don't like it enough for a box I may buy one at the B&M from time to time. If I didn't like it at all, I was only out one stick and I can try it again later when I forget what it tasted like.

For me it comes down to I cannot see paying that much more for a box at a B&M versus the same thing on the net.

02-23-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackIrish

You know, the idea of sitting around with some buddies and doing a B&M vs internet herf seems fun. Not because it would have any statistical significance (I deal with surveys and statistical data for a living, and the amount of care that you'd need to take in designing a proper study is enormous), but because it would just be fun.

I'm actually curious about the premise: doesn't it make more sense for manufacturers to send their better product to their biggest and most powerful customers (the internet retailers) rather than the highly dispersed local B&Ms?

Agreed with the first statement. This is why we do it and it is fun.

With regards to the second statement. First the local B&Ms add up to significantly more than the big guys. Second, There is thew fact that the big guys probably won't notice. third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper". Forth, the local can actually leave you. CI and Famous etc. could not just stop selling Rocky, or Perdomo or La Aurora, there is no threat. a Local guy just tells his clients, they were dealing with me poorly or gave me bad stuff and out of loyalty to their local place many stop smoking the brand all together. The big guys are powerful, because of the volume to one place that they command, but they throw it around too and demand dirt cheap prices for those. When I started in business I wanted the big guys, the whales. But now I want a thousand little guys, that way no one customer leaving can hurt my business.

02-23-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Gator

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

Agreed there are a boat load of variables and the testing does not have statistical significance. But it is still odd and telling that 100% notice a difference and always in favor of the local.

Col. Kurtz · 02-23-2009, 03:30 PM

If I were Pepin, Fuente, et al. I wouldn't want my name on an inferior stick. It wouldn't matter to me where the stick was destined, internet or B&M.

I have gotten some putrid and great sticks from B&M and online. These are handmade products that are subject to minor variations unit to unit. I understand variations in color are sorted together for box presentation purposes, so it's plausible there are big differences in wrapper color within a blend. As far as purposely putting lower quality tobacco in a certain batch, not buying it. Aren't torcedors issued their bales for the days rolling?

I would imagine that the most important thing to aim for within a blend/brand is consistency.

I guess it boils down to this: If you like cigars from your B&M buy them (I'm sure they appreciate it), If you like them from online sources, buy those (I'm sure they appreciate it as well.) Not much on the conspiracy theories, but that's just me. I may be wrong.

Raralith · 02-23-2009, 03:36 PM

Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point.

Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

Kreth · 02-23-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raralith

Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

MajorCaptSilly · 02-23-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Agreed with the first statement. This is why we do it and it is fun.

With regards to the second statement. First the local B&Ms add up to significantly more than the big guys. Second, There is thew fact that the big guys probably won't notice. third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper". Forth, the local can actually leave you. CI and Famous etc. could not just stop selling Rocky, or Perdomo or La Aurora, there is no threat. a Local guy just tells his clients, they were dealing with me poorly or gave me bad stuff and out of loyalty to their local place many stop smoking the brand all together. The big guys are powerful, because of the volume to one place that they command, but they throw it around too and demand dirt cheap prices for those. When I started in business I wanted the big guys, the whales. But now I want a thousand little guys, that way no one customer leaving can hurt my business.

I have 2 cats and 1 dog.

MCS

Raralith · 02-23-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kreth

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

And told them you were seeing of B&M and internet cigars were different? I'm almost certain many will say there is.

lightning9191 · 02-23-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper".

Perhaps you are experiencing a placebo effect because you seem quite convinced that the B&M's sticks are superior...

02-23-2009, 12:44 AM	#41
knliebe Guest Posts: n/a	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet Legend, i'd be interested in participating in that little experiment of yours. Although i find it hard to believe that b&m's have better sticks than online retailers, i would be interested in doing a side by side comparison and judging from their.

02-23-2009, 06:28 AM	#42
SeanGAR Crotchety Geezer Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Radford VA Posts: 911 Trading: (3)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet Here is the statistical table for a 2 tailed paired forced choice preference test, which is what you are planning if you give 2 different cigars to people and ask which they prefer (and don't take no preference as an answer). As you can see, it is not vaid to run the experiment with 6 of fewer observations and that you need more than 8 observations so you don't require 100% agreement. We never run these tests with less than 72 observations if the data are important. But for the sake of argument, if you have 25 observations (i.e., 25 different people smoked the cigars and gave you their preference), 18 of them would have to prefer one of the 2 smokes for the difference to be significant at the 5% level. And you would need to run the experiment using a number of different comparisons. I did something similar when I ran an accelerated aging experiment several years ago. I asked people to smoke the cigars side by side, and compare them as the burned down. I did learn that you need to find people who are motivated and who have palates that you can trust. __________________ How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

02-23-2009, 09:56 AM	#47
Smokin Gator Just plain insane! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: The Swamp Posts: 6,237 Trading: (106)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here. Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources. You guys have fun with it if you so choose. __________________ Check out the Cigar Asylum Newbie Sampler Trade

02-23-2009, 10:11 AM	#49
BlackIrish MassHole Militia Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Eddie Location: Bunker Hill Posts: 1,395 Trading: (55)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet You know, the idea of sitting around with some buddies and doing a B&M vs internet herf seems fun. Not because it would have any statistical significance (I deal with surveys and statistical data for a living, and the amount of care that you'd need to take in designing a proper study is enormous), but because it would just be fun. I'm actually curious about the premise: doesn't it make more sense for manufacturers to send their better product to their biggest and most powerful customers (the internet retailers) rather than the highly dispersed local B&Ms? Please understand that I'm not disparaging B&Ms -- many of the proprietors are enormously knowledgeable and very influential in customers' purchasing decisions. But they probably sell only a fraction of the volume of the big internet outlets. I'd think that if the internet outlets were getting lower quality stuff, they could throw their weight around a lot more. Just a question . . . __________________

02-23-2009, 10:17 AM	#52
jledou Have My Own Room Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Jay Location: Kansas Posts: 2,224 Trading: (27)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet IMO, a cigar is a cigar and yes all of the factors may change the taste, but there have been times that one out of a box will taste different from the rest correct? That being said, I will go to the B&M to try a cigar and if I like it a lot I will order a box from the internet. If I don't like it enough for a box I may buy one at the B&M from time to time. If I didn't like it at all, I was only out one stick and I can try it again later when I forget what it tasted like. For me it comes down to I cannot see paying that much more for a box at a B&M versus the same thing on the net.

02-23-2009, 03:30 PM	#55
Col. Kurtz Have My Own Room Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Jerry Location: South Appleton Posts: 1,839 Trading: (26)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet If I were Pepin, Fuente, et al. I wouldn't want my name on an inferior stick. It wouldn't matter to me where the stick was destined, internet or B&M. I have gotten some putrid and great sticks from B&M and online. These are handmade products that are subject to minor variations unit to unit. I understand variations in color are sorted together for box presentation purposes, so it's plausible there are big differences in wrapper color within a blend. As far as purposely putting lower quality tobacco in a certain batch, not buying it. Aren't torcedors issued their bales for the days rolling? I would imagine that the most important thing to aim for within a blend/brand is consistency. I guess it boils down to this: If you like cigars from your B&M buy them (I'm sure they appreciate it), If you like them from online sources, buy those (I'm sure they appreciate it as well.) Not much on the conspiracy theories, but that's just me. I may be wrong. Last edited by Col. Kurtz; 02-23-2009 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Pubic skool edjumucation

02-23-2009, 03:36 PM	#56
Raralith Death to the Unbelievers Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 475 Trading: (24)	Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point. Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.