JoePa.....Sad if true....

[massphatness]

I rarely disagree with you, Scott, but in this case I do.

Paterno did the legal thing. But he failed to do the moral thing.

[replicant_argent]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I disagree.........I REALLY DISAGREE.

Crazy/telling/appropriate? to see Matt Millen break down on SportsCenter today....the gravity of this for Penn State as an institution. This is so far bigger than pointing the finger at one or two douchebags.

Originally Posted by loki

you're wrong pete, dead wrong. it's far less about us then it is about the kids who were raped, not even close, orders of magnitude less. everyone reread that before someone goes off half cocked. but this does impact everyone who went to, graduated or just liked penn state. I'm gutted over this, I'm gutted that the institution that I spent years cheering for and attending would allow this **** to happen. this has changed everything about how I looked at something I considered myself a member of family of. it hurts me personally that this occurred and how it was handled.

I don't care where this happened. I don't care about the team. I will not feel somehow let down because a certain institution will be impacted. The rah-rah bullsh!t mentality is a waste of time. This is simply about the good old boy protectionism and perversion of individuals. If this happened at 3M you wouldn't have people wringing their hands about the "integrity of the company" and the "stellar performance of it's divisions" by the average Joe. While having passion for your particular sports teams is certainly something many people enjoy, I think that perhaps if this situation gets you all bent out of shape regarding the institution (other than feeling that those people that didn't do the right and moral thing made the school a lesser place, and wanting that culture to occur at a higher standard) perhaps your priorities aren't what I would perceive to be in the same hierarchy as my own.
Yes, if this business that is Penn State has people working for it who cultivate a view of themselves as being apart or above the law, it needs to change. Sports are a business for the Universities, with some other added benefits. Huge egos, in a small subculture of our society that is rewarded and stroked by millions and millions of people. Many of them "play by their own rules" which, in most cases, is fairly harmless. In some instances like this one it has evolved into a disgusting hydra of a shameful and heartbreaking situation.
I feel for the victims of this. Those guilty of the perversion/shielding/deflecting/lying/not acting in the proper manner or not following through should get the justice they deserve.
Does that mean I will get out the crying towel for the institution and how it's reputation is stained, damaged, etc?

No. Simple priorities. It is about the victims, and the guilty. I will not be anguished over a flawed institution (business). I would hope they take every step necessary to repair the culture that allowed this to happen. That I can see is germane to this discussion.

edit:
Regarding Joe Pa, in my world, if presented with something like this, so very, very wrong, I do not think I could simply "report it" and then not make sure it was handled. The buck stopped, for the most part with him. Half measures and deflections and putting your head in the sand after you "did what was required" of you reminds me of a certain ongoing problem in another, very old monstrous institution. With the same type of problem.

[Starscream]

Originally Posted by massphatness

I rarely disagree with you, Scott, but in this case I do.

Paterno did the legal thing. But he failed to do the moral thing.

That's what I'm missing. What was the moral thing to do? Beat his @$$ (which is what I might have done if I were him)? He told his superiors what was going on, then he was told by his superiors that they had taken care of the issue/cleared his name.

[croatan]

Originally Posted by massphatness

I rarely disagree with you, Scott, but in this case I do.

Paterno did the legal thing. But he failed to do the moral thing.

Same here.

Also, after reading the grand jury report, a Texas court would most definitely have a different take on whether he did the "legal thing". Many states, including Texas, require every person who has cause to believe (notice it says "cause to believe", a pretty low standard) that a child is being abused or neglected to report it. Additionally, here, "professionals" including doctors, teachers, and anyone who works with children, are even required to report within 48 hours or face criminal sanctions.

Just because something is legal somewhere (assuming it even is--I don't know Pennsylvania criminal law) doesn't make it right.

[loki]

Originally Posted by replicant_argent

I don't care where this happened. I don't care about the team. I will not feel somehow let down because a certain institution will be impacted. The rah-rah bullsh!t mentality is a waste of time. This is simply about the good old boy protectionism and perversion of individuals. If this happened at 3M you wouldn't have people wringing their hands about the "integrity of the company" and the "stellar performance of it's divisions" by the average Joe. While having passion for your particular sports teams is certainly something many people enjoy, I think that perhaps if this situation gets you all bent out of shape regarding the institution (other than feeling that those people that didn't do the right and moral thing made the school a lesser place, and wanting that culture to occur at a higher standard) perhaps your priorities aren't what I would perceive to be in the same hierarchy as my own.
Yes, if this business that is Penn State has people working for it who cultivate a view of themselves as being apart or above the law, it needs to change. Sports are a business for the Universities, with some other added benefits. Huge egos, in a small subculture of our society that is rewarded and stroked by millions and millions of people. Many of them "play by their own rules" which, in most cases, is fairly harmless. In some instances like this one it has evolved into a disgusting hydra of a shameful and heartbreaking situation.
I feel for the victims of this. Those guilty of the perversion/shielding/deflecting/lying/not acting in the proper manner or not following through should get the justice they deserve.
Does that mean I will get out the crying towel for the institution and how it's reputation is stained, damaged, etc?

No. Simple priorities. It is about the victims, and the guilty. I will not be anguished over a flawed institution (business). I would hope they take every step necessary to repair the culture that allowed this to happen. That I can see is germane to this discussion.

edit:
Regarding Joe Pa, in my world, if presented with something like this, so very, very wrong, I do not think I could simply "report it" and then not make sure it was handled. The buck stopped, for the most part with him. Half measures and deflections and putting your head in the sand after you "did what was required" of you reminds me of a certain ongoing problem in another, very old monstrous institution. With the same type of problem.

remember that thing i said about going off half cocked? you either didn't read what I wrote or chose to ignore it

[replicant_argent]

Originally Posted by loki

remember that thing i said about going off half cocked? you either didn't read what I wrote or chose to ignore it

I did. It is not about the fans or the alumni. You and I will have to agree to disagree.

[loki]

Originally Posted by replicant_argent

I did. It is not about the fans or the alumni. You and I will have to agree to disagree.

yes everything can only be black and white. so by your line of thinking, this isn't about joe or the university, it's only about the sick **** who was raping little boys

[E.J.]

IMO, I will formulate opinion on people, not only on their ability to follow the laws on the land, but of the moral laws of humankind.

If someone on my staff came up to me and said that they just observed another member of my staff, who happened to be a long time friend, anally rapping a kid, I would not feel my "duty" ended when I did the minimum of all actions, which is to leave that information in someone elses hands, let someone else deal with it.

ESPECIALLY when I see that went nowhere. It should be noted that this was not the first time I had heard "rumblings" about this dirtbag.

This is not just about one person either, it is about every person at Penn State and even outside of Penn State University, who knew about this and did nothing more than the bare minimum at best, less than that at worst.

In the end, unless you are going with the theory that McQueary made up the story...then McQueary failed. Then Paterno failed. Then Curley failed. Then Schultz failed. There are more names I am sure....

You watch Matt Millen here, you tell me that he doesn't know this exact statement in his heart... McQueary failed. Then Paterno failed. Then Curley failed. Then Schultz failed. Penn State University, which is part of me, the place which had a big part of making me who I am today, a place I love, people that I love, failed these children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MKAt...layer_embedded

[pnoon]

Let's keep this civil and about the issues.
I won't ask a second time.
Posted via Mobile Device

[massphatness]

Originally Posted by Starscream

That's what I'm missing. What was the moral thing to do? Beat his @$$ (which is what I might have done if I were him)? He told his superiors what was going on, then he was told by his superiors that they had taken care of the issue/cleared his name.

In my mind, the moral thing to do would have been to report the information to law enforcement. I'm pretty sure the parents of the rape victims would agree on this point.

[loki]

McQueary failed the second he didn't rush in and slam sanduskys head into a wall

[AD720]

But vin, at that point would it just be hearsay? "I heard from somebody that X happened"?

If you read the indictment, which I'd only recommend to those with strong stomachs, the police, CPS, et all had known about this guy for a bit.

I still fail to see how Joe Pa retiring a disgrace is the next step.

[AD720]

Originally Posted by shilala

I've been reading about this very closely since the moment the story broke.
Boiled down to brass tacks, what I've learned so far is that Joe had no knowledge of any specific anything (at least up until a point). The grad student fed JoePa a small piece of info on which he acted immediately. It was then handled improperly by the school officials for years.

This is another typical media lynching, and of course it needs to fall on JoePa's head because he's the face of Penn State.
It's wrong and it's disgusting.

This is a man who has devoted his life to excellence, training men to be great men, donating almost all the money he has ever made back to the college so that even more men could become greater men.
And for all this selflessness all these years, he's the bad guy for not stopping something he had no knowledge or power over? He should have stopped taking care of all the hundreds of people he was devoted to caring for, because he should have magically known everything that went on? He should have had full rein over the entire college's policy because he's a football coach?

It doesn't make even one single ounce of sense that he would have ignored this, beit specifically or otherwise. He's retiring over the sheer guilt he's feeling that it could have happened in a place that he regarded so highly and worked so hard to make exceptional. He wishes he'd have known, wishes he could have done something, wishes he could have saved these boys, and is tortured that it happened. He's made statements directly to that effect. These are statements from the one man in high profile athletics who has never been caught in a lie, never been indicted, never been called on the carpet for cheating, a truly decent man.
And he's the bad guy?

There could not have been a single person in that school from janitor to student to faculty to the president that didn't know about this when that grad student saw that ten year old boy being raped in the shower. Or when the janitor witnessed another incident. Or when the Physical Plant employee witnessed another incident.
Everyone had to believe it was being handled and handled correctly. In hindsight, of course he could have done more. So could every single one of the people who ever set foot on that campus for all those years this was going on.

Read the Grand Jury indictment. The Department of Child Welfare knew what was going on in 1998 and they did nothing.
Dozens of people who knew of this first hand did everything they could and school officials lied and hid and did nothing.
Detectives were dispatched and hidden microphone converstaions took place and they did nothing.

The one man who stands out as a decent human being who has served God and his fellow man for his entire life is being blamed and ruined over this, and it's a sick injustice.
Read his statements. His prayers are with all these families. He'll do everything he can to help them, because that's who he is. To crucify him for not doing more is ridiculous, patently unfair, and blatently obvious to anyone who is willing to take five minutes to read, rather than to listen to the dogsh1t fed them by the media.

If there's a "right" side in this sickening, painful mess, it's to pray for these young men and their families who now have to relive this horror all over again. To abandon and assail a man like JoePa and try to somehow make it his fault is disgusting.
I'd far rather people blame me. I'm more deserving. I've done tons of awful things in my life and I probably deserve to be blamed for something I'm not guilty of.

Agreed.

And I didn't go to penn state and I don't watch college football.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by massphatness

I rarely disagree with you, Scott, but in this case I do.

Paterno did the legal thing. But he failed to do the moral thing.

What we're missing here is that we don't know all the things that he truly did do. We know one thing, and that is that he immediately reported the incident to his superiors. We don't even know if he followed up or not, but everyone is assuming that based on God knows what. It's certainly not based on his character or past performance.
If we're assuming he did nothing else but take this to his higher ups, that also makes no sense. He's not spoken to his personal involvement or mentioned what he did or did not do.
That goes right back to indicting him on what's in our imagination rather than what actually happened.
Along the way he also dismissed Sandusky from his ball club, plus let him know that he was no longer in line for the head coaching position that was to be passed to him. So that's three things we know he did.
We don't have to agree, my friend, but I'm not sure what this moral thing is that he failed to do, or how we know he didn't do it?

Sandusky was allowed by the college's officials to continue use of all Penn State's facilities AFTER Joe had already run him out of his program. Doesn't that sound like Joe's hands were tied, or that he must have been led to believe that all these accusations against Sandusky were either erroneous or already taken care of?

[massphatness]

Originally Posted by AD720

But vin, at that point would it just be hearsay? "I heard from somebody that X happened"?

If you read the indictment, which I'd only recommend to those with strong stomachs, the police, CPS, et all had known about this guy for a bit.

I still fail to see how Joe Pa retiring a disgrace is the next step.

I guess the question I would need to ask myself is if it had happened to my kid, would I be ok that Paterno took no other action than informing his superior?

My answer would be no, I would most definitely not be ok.


To be clear, Paterno is far from the only one who has culpability here, but he was in a position to stop this guy and didn't even though he followed the letter of the law.

And Scott, Joe Paterno IS Penn State -- his hands are never tied.

[AD720]

Originally Posted by massphatness

I guess the question I would need to ask myself is if it had happened to my kid, would I be ok that Paterno took no other action than informing his superior?

My answer would be no, I would most definitely not be ok.


To be clear, Paterno is far from the only one who has culpability here, but he was in a position to stop this guy and didn't even though he followed the letter of the law.

And Scott, Joe Paterno IS Penn State -- his hands are never tied.

Vin, agreed 100%. But...

Do you know that he took no other action? Do you know that he wasn't told that it was "handled" by the two guys that got arrested for lying to the grand jury?

Like Scott says, him being complacent in this or one step further, assisting in a cover up as some people (not here that I have seen) seem to believe does not go along with his character as it is known for his past actions that have been substantiated.

"It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and a single act to destroy it."

Perhaps words to remember and live by.

JoePa doesn't get a pass because of all of the other things he did. Sorry.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by massphatness

In my mind, the moral thing to do would have been to report the information to law enforcement. I'm pretty sure the parents of the rape victims would agree on this point.

Law enforcement was already involved at the time Joe became involved, Vin. Actually, they were involved years prior. And did nothing.
Joe had already removed Sandusky from his program, told him he wouldn't be receiving the head coaching position, and reported the grad student's information. All things that were within his power.

Penn State officials allowed Sandusky to continue to use Penn State facilities as part of his retirement in 99 when Joe ran him off.

[AD720]

Originally Posted by Resipsa

"It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and a single act to destroy it."

Perhaps words to remember and live by.

JoePa doesn't get a pass because of all of the other things he did. Sorry.

That is my point! What was the single act? No one knows what he was told was happening. No one here at least or in the media. It's all just conjecture. The Police already knew about this guy. I just don't get the vilification.

What I'm saying is, based on the lifetime of reputation it's hard to believe that he WOULD do the "single act" to tarnish it. Doesn't add up.

Originally Posted by AD720

That is my point! What was the single act? No one knows what he was told was happening. No one here at least or in the media. It's all just conjecture. The Police already knew about this guy. I just don't get the vilification.

But we do know what he was told by McQueary do we not?

The failure to act IS an act, sometimes legally, more frequently morally.