stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

Originally Posted by Darrell

I wish I could say you were wrong. However, working at a B&M, we order 90% off our stock straight from Avo, LFD, Tatuaje, Oliva, etc. We have a couple of big distributors we deal with i.e. General and Altadis. However, most of our stuff as I said, comes from the companies themselves.

Why would you whish you could say I was wrong?????!!!!!

[Kreth]

I heard Romero's thinking of making a movie about this thread...

[SeanGAR]

It is no surprise that manufacturers play different segments of the market. Most do. The original postulation was that the exact same brand and type of cigar exists in two quality levels.

Say for a second that Laura SeanGAR sells dressed in Saks for $500 and up and in my boutique at place de vendome for $3000 and up. We make a cheaper line for Sam's with our name, Laura SeanGAR. We're just playing market segmentation. This is not at all the same as if we sold the exact name and model dress at 2 quality levels, one in Saks and one in Sam's for different prices. So I see no relevance here whatsoever.

[Bax]

Originally Posted by icehog3

Ah, crap....I just whacked the horse again.

This could be the quote of the day!

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

So I see no relevance here whatsoever.

We've already established that you wouldn't regardless. You've already stated that you WILL NOT entertain the possibility of this topic being anything but what you think. Regardless of the fact that neither side can be proven. You have made it clear that you have your stance and there is not possibility of any other. Your participation at this point is redundant why read any more posts.

[chippewastud79]

Originally Posted by Legend

We've already established that you wouldn't regardless. You've already stated that you WILL NOT entertain the possibility of this topic being anything but what you think. Regardless of the fact that neither side can be proven. You have made it clear that you have your stance and there is not possibility of any other. Your participation at this point is redundant why read any more posts.

I thought your whole point was that it can be proven and you were asking for back-up to the fact besides your B+M friends opinions. Why else would you be asking us and go so far as to ask the manufacturers themselves?

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

I thought your whole point was that it can be proven and you were asking for back-up to the fact besides your B+M friends opinions. Why else would you be asking us and go so far as to ask the manufacturers themselves?

My whole point was for a discussion on it. I've been open as far as what the outcome could be, I had my opinion and supported it, but recognized that it was not a provable premise. Certain other posters preferred to fight instead of discuss. To discuss you need to be open to the fact that your opinion may not be correct or you will just fight. My point on the above post was that Seangar in particular has chosen to fight on this matter and not discuss. If that's all you're gonna do post the opinion and move on.

[WildBlueSooner]

I think we should just take the internet and take the B&Ms and put them in a royal rumble and let em fight it out! I expect a tough clean fight..manufactures and distributors do not interfere!

[Da Klugs]

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

If you go back to the original post.... there could be validity in it.

Say for example a cigar Mfg like Torano who makes cigars for others is commissioned to make a "line" for one of the on line guys. Figure the price may come into play there. Lesser value materials used because of the price point demanded. Always wondered what the relationship in the wholesale price was ... Labor vs material costs.

Conversely, the concept of "brand" is pretty important to most manufacturers. Their name is on the darn things. To purposely make a product that varies in quality by where you buy it does not make much sense and is hard to believe from a business owners perspective. Different cigar name band etc sure, but not the identical cigar.

Most cigars are not purchased directly from the manufacturers but through distributors. These distributors are typically the ones setting price points and determining physically which cigars go where.

Maybe the OP just prefers the flavors over humidification provides in most B&M's vs cigars from a home humidor.

Originally Posted by Legend

My whole point was for a discussion on it. I've been open as far as what the outcome could be, I had my opinion and supported it, but recognized that it was not a provable premise. Certain other posters preferred to fight instead of discuss. To discuss you need to be open to the fact that your opinion may not be correct or you will just fight. My point on the above post was that Seangar in particular has chosen to fight on this matter and not discuss. If that's all you're gonna do post the opinion and move on.

But it seems you only want to discuss the portions you are comfortable with.

Lets start here:

Say for example a cigar Mfg like Torano who makes cigars for others is commissioned to make a "line" for one of the on line guys. Figure the price may come into play there. Lesser value materials used because of the price point demanded.

Are you willing to accept as fact that cigar manufacturers do make house brand and special release cigars for large customers.. typically the on line guys? They also produce "bundles" for the on line guys to make samplers from. Seen and bought them at Cigars International, Rocky Patel vintage 1992 and 1990 bundles for $ 40. Interesting, you can tell the difference by shape when new as the bundles are very pressed. Boxes on the shelf were over a hundred. Hell many cigar brands have little if any manufacturing capacity and are made to "spec" so to speak. If so, to an extent your original point is made in that there may be different/greater or lessor quality in these cigars. However, they are not identical to the normal lines in representation.

Conversely, the concept of "brand" is pretty important to most manufacturers. Their name is on the darn things. To purposely make a product that varies in quality by where you buy it does not make much sense and is hard to believe from a business owners perspective. Different cigar name band etc sure, but not the identical cigar.

This is where your argument, however interesting, seems to lack substantive motivation for the manufacturer or any proof except for opinion on your part.

Maybe the OP just prefers the flavors over humidification provides in most B&M's vs cigars from a home humidor.

Now to the opinion. Seriously and conversely, cigars do not travel well. It may take months for them to acclimate and open up after the traumas of travel. On the flip side, B&M's have a bad rep in terms of stability and correctness of RH. Cigars may be of different ages/provenance and RH storage. If you really want to draw conclusions on potential differences you need to eliminate the potential discrepancies in age, storage conditions and prejudice based upon origin.

Get some cigars at release from both sources. Store them for 3 months in the same place, RH, temperature, etc. Have someone else deband them and put a blank on them A/B, 1/2. Do it for 5 cigars and see what personal observations you can make. Without this commonality the observation on preference is, to me, intriguing but meaningless.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

But it seems you only want to discuss the portions you are comfortable with.

Lets start here:

Say for example a cigar Mfg like Torano who makes cigars for others is commissioned to make a "line" for one of the on line guys. Figure the price may come into play there. Lesser value materials used because of the price point demanded.

Are you willing to accept as fact that cigar manufacturers do make house brand and special release cigars for large customers.. typically the on line guys? They also produce "bundles" for the on line guys to make samplers from. Seen and bought them at Cigars International, Rocky Patel vintage 1992 and 1990 bundles for $ 40. Interesting, you can tell the difference by shape when new as the bundles are very pressed. Boxes on the shelf were over a hundred. Hell many cigar brands have little if any manufacturing capacity and are made to "spec" so to speak. If so, to an extent your original point is made in that there may be different/greater or lessor quality in these cigars. However, they are not identical to the normal lines in representation.

If I understand you correctly I agree with you here.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

Conversely, the concept of "brand" is pretty important to most manufacturers. Their name is on the darn things. To purposely make a product that varies in quality by where you buy it does not make much sense and is hard to believe from a business owners perspective. Different cigar name band etc sure, but not the identical cigar.

Point taken. My response to this was the tomato argument. While the cigar is the same, same leaves from the same areas, etc. I think we can agree that being a plant there will be some variation within the same leaves and that a professional could tell the difference between great and super great.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

This is where your argument, however interesting, seems to lack substantive motivation for the manufacturer or any proof except for opinion on your part.

the motivation I suggested was:
1. a desire to keep the small guy in business
2. The squeaky wheel syndrome, an owner will notice well before an employee.
3. Cost. On those larger orders being selective is not feasible.

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

Maybe the OP just prefers the flavors over humidification provides in most B&M's vs cigars from a home humidor.

Now to the opinion. Seriously and conversely, cigars do not travel well. It may take months for them to acclimate and open up after the traumas of travel. On the flip side, B&M's have a bad rep in terms of stability and correctness of RH. Cigars may be of different ages/provenance and RH storage. If you really want to draw conclusions on potential differences you need to eliminate the potential discrepancies in age, storage conditions and prejudice based upon origin.

Get some cigars at release from both sources. Store them for 3 months in the same place, RH, temperature, etc. Have someone else deband them and put a blank on them A/B, 1/2. Do it for your 5 favorite cigars and see what personal observations you can make. Without this commonality the observation on preference is, to me, intriguing but meaningless.

I agree wholeheartedly that I might be 100% wrong on this. As I stated, it was a phenomenon noticed by us and others I've talked to, supported by some statements from workers in Honduras and Dominican Republic. I think I have addressed everything and not avoided anything, If I have it was subconscious and/or unintentional.

Still waiting for some more of the guys from the lounge to comment and support your position. If anyone has and I missed it please excuse me and link me to the posts.

[Smokin Gator]

Can't we all just 100% agree with Legend so this goes away... PLEASE!!!

I will start it out... I 100% believe that B&M smokes are better than big internet guy smokes!!

[WildBlueSooner]

Originally Posted by Smokin Gator

Can't we all just 100% agree with Legend so this goes away... PLEASE!!!

I will start it out... I 100% believe that B&M smokes are better than big internet guy smokes!!

I agree...I swear!

[chippewastud79]

Originally Posted by ahc4353

Still waiting for some more of the guys from the lounge to comment and support your position. If anyone has and I missed it please excuse me and link me to the posts.

They are professionals Al, we are mere mortals that cannot tell the difference between great and really great because we lack the proper tastebud developmental techniquies to differentiate 100% of the time.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

We've already established that you wouldn't regardless. You've already stated that you WILL NOT entertain the possibility of this topic being anything but what you think. Regardless of the fact that neither side can be proven. You have made it clear that you have your stance and there is not possibility of any other. Your participation at this point is redundant why read any more posts.

See, here's the problem. You have presented not a single lucid argument as to why a manufacturer would degrade the quality of a brand name product for one market stream versus the other.

Not one.

When straws are tossed by others (the dress example) you grasp them as if they're gold, without using any thought whatsoever as to whether they make comparative sense at all.

Market segmentation exists in the cigar industry. Everybody knows that. Manufacturers make lower quality "value" lines all the time. We know they are not the same cigars as the higher end stuff. Everybody knows this but this has absolutely nothing do to with your thesis, that manufacturers have 2 quality lines OF THE EXACT SAME CIGAR for different market segments.

Now, I tossed you a bone. I presented explanations for your observations. Doesn't seem to me that you have given them much consideration. On the other hand, this shouldn't have been a surprise, when presented with a maxim used for 700 years, you make a dismissive comment.

YOU have established exactly nothing here, save perhaps that you are interested in getting to China with your shovel. You have presented no argument of value to change my mind.

Even if this were to be true, couldn't you just let the internet cigars sit in your humidor for a couple months to bring them up to par with what a B&M sells?

[Starscream]

Please! Someone stop the madness!

Originally Posted by andysutherland

Please! Someone stop the madness!

[Whee]

Originally Posted by andysutherland

Please! Someone stop the madness!

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

See, here's the problem. You have presented not a single lucid argument as to why a manufacturer would degrade the quality of a brand name product for one market stream versus the other.

Not one.

When straws are tossed by others (the dress example) you grasp them as if they're gold, without using any thought whatsoever as to whether they make comparative sense at all.

Market segmentation exists in the cigar industry. Everybody knows that. Manufacturers make lower quality "value" lines all the time. We know they are not the same cigars as the higher end stuff. Everybody knows this but this has absolutely nothing do to with your thesis, that manufacturers have 2 quality lines OF THE EXACT SAME CIGAR for different market segments.

Now, I tossed you a bone. I presented explanations for your observations. Doesn't seem to me that you have given them much consideration. On the other hand, this shouldn't have been a surprise, when presented with a maxim used for 700 years, you make a dismissive comment.

YOU have established exactly nothing here, save perhaps that you are interested in getting to China with your shovel. You have presented no argument of value to change my mind.

So I was right the only lucid arguement in your mind is yours and you will never see another point of view even as a possibility. Thanks for confirming that.