Official SEC Football Thread 2011

[Smokin Gator]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Doesn't matter too much either way.

This whole BCS argument that's been raging here spurs a very old memory of mine:

When I was a kid, like 6-7 years old, I did not like even the thought of getting shots/immunizations. I would kick and scream and pitch a holy fit. But you know what happened in the end? Big people held me down and I got the shot anyway. Just saying... seems relevant here.

[OLS]

Originally Posted by rizzle

Is they, me?

They indicates more than one.

[OLS]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Brad,

I went to the BCS thread to play....we can continue over there, including my responding to this post. It is apparent that since I don't have the group think, my thoughts are not welcome here

Don't worry, 'they' will follow you, lol. Until you agree with them, they will hound you...or I will hound them for the same reason.
.....................................

I was right, they did follow you, hahaha.

[OLS]

Originally Posted by SvilleKid

Jeremy..... As we discussed, I went back and did a little research. In the weeks that they played.... Per Coach's poll: Both Bama and Oklahoma State played 4 Top-25 ranked teams each. Alabama played against 20, 12, 12 and # 1 ranked teams. Ok St played a 8, 21, 12 and 11. These were using the Coaches poll placement at the start of each game.

So, AT THE TIME of each game, both Bama and Ok St each played four top 25 ranked teams. And Ok St only played the fourth ranked team because of their conference championship game.

This is a pretty weak argument. This is like saying I am 30 years old because I used to be 30.
Teams like Florida were ranked on expectations near the beginning of the season and beat teams
that everyone else beat soundly up to that point and for the rest of the year. UT couldn't catch
a break and people ranked UF highly on expectations and pity it seemed like until people just realized they
were NOT a standard Florida team. Bama played two good SEC teams and 6 pushover SEC teams and
3 NC pushovers. Vandy played better than they have in decades but still didn't have enough juice
to be called a big threat to Alabama.
This is not me saying bama sucks, LSU is No.1, this is me saying if you are going to stand up and say bama
should be playing LSU and NOT OK St., then at least use some kind of real numbers. And if you are going
to throw in "OK St. only played the 4th team because of the conference championship game, then say that
in front of a mirror first and listen to how it sounds. Bama didn't win it's division OR conference championship.
I'd call the Uof OK win a HELL of a win and a HELL of a factor.

Of course your point could be that they got an extra game to rack up a top 25 win, Bama didn't...
but you PLAY HARD AND TAKE a berth in the conf champ, you don't get handed free stuff
cause 'this is your year'. ---edit--- and I understand your point, but this is a mid-season point,
this shouldn't be allowed at season's end. It's fun to look back and make notes and gather data
but this is hardly useful at this late date. To make my point, the computer rankings for the title
week compilation likely do NOT take any of this into consideration. This is just like the RPI, if
Memphis beats Tennessee in Basketball and UT is ranked #2 pre-season, Memphis has to PRAY
that they keep being awesome or their RPI plummets when they get shown for what they really are.

[rizzle]

Originally Posted by OLS

They indicates more than one.

Well, I thought about it, and I can't let you have all the fun. Plus, I learn a lot from you. I'll see if I can round up the others for story time.

[OLS]

No need, I was simply answering your question. I guess you are not one of the ones ignoring me, lol.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by SvilleKid

And Ok St only played the fourth ranked team because of their conference championship game.

Don't mean to interrupt your homering, but the Big XII doesn't have a Conference Championship game. Bedlam's been played for over a 100 years now. Carry on.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

So for those who want to see more than one conference playing for the title... having someone like Urban Meyer go into the Big Ten is not a bad thing. However, I think there are plenty of great coaches outside the SEC. For the SEC, it's a chance to prove (or further prove) that it's perhaps not the coaches that make the difference, but our culture.

Pray tell, where was that, "culture" prior to Nick Saban becoming the head coach at Alabama (or LSU for that matter)? Further, where's the, "culture" now at Florida without Urban Meyer? Is all the, "culture" dried up in Knoxville, too?

[rizzle]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Pray tell, where was that, "culture" prior to Nick Saban becoming the head coach at Alabama (or LSU for that matter)? Further, where's the, "culture" now at Florida without Urban Meyer? Is all the, "culture" dried up in Knoxville, too?

Culture? You know we're a bunch of inbred hicks. We ain't never had no culturing.

[ninjavanish]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Pray tell, where was that, "culture" prior to Nick Saban becoming the head coach at Alabama (or LSU for that matter)? Further, where's the, "culture" now at Florida without Urban Meyer? Is all the, "culture" dried up in Knoxville, too?

Stephen, I think you misunderstand my statement. The point that was being made is there are plenty of great coaches outside of the SEC. And I think that Urban Meyer is a prime example of a great coach that doesn't matter where he goes, will impact a team, conference and potentially all of college football. The distinction I was trying to make however is that perhaps there is more to winning championships than simply having a good head coach. (Ahem, Charlie Weiss, Dennis Erickson, Dave Wandstedt, the list goes on.)

As to the culture of the Southeastern US, football is an integral part of it. It is woven into the fabric of our existence nearly from birth in most states below the Mason-Dixon line (Sometimes even from CONCEPTION. I for one have seen baby nurseries painted in team color).

I won't speak for the cultures of Louisiana, Florida or Tennessee, but as for the football culture in the state Alabama, I think anyone who has ever worn Crimson and White or Burnt Orange and Blue would happily inform you about said culture. (I'm sure even our Division II Team from UNA in Florence, AL might have some input, or perhaps Troy University further south) However, being a subjective matter and one of personal taste I will leave that up to you to figure out. I however will simply say you'd be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football in Alabama is predicated by the arrival of Nick Saban, or even Gene Chizik for that matter.

[Powers]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Stephen, I think you misunderstand my statement. The point that was being made is there are plenty of great coaches outside of the SEC. And I think that Urban Meyer is a prime example of a great coach that doesn't matter where he goes, will impact a team, conference and potentially all of college football. The distinction I was trying to make however is that perhaps there is more to winning championships than simply having a good head coach. (Ahem, Charlie Weiss, Dennis Erickson, Dave Wandstedt, the list goes on.)

As to the culture of the Southeastern US, football is an integral part of it. It is woven into the fabric of our existence nearly from birth in most states below the Mason-Dixon line (Sometimes even from CONCEPTION. I for one have seen baby nurseries painted in team color).

I won't speak for the cultures of Louisiana, Florida or Tennessee, but as for the football culture in the state Alabama, I think anyone who has ever worn Crimson and White or Burnt Orange and Blue would happily inform you about said culture. (I'm sure even our Division II Team from UNA in Florence, AL might have some input, or perhaps Troy University further south) However, being a subjective matter and one of personal taste I will leave that up to you to figure out. I however will simply say you'd be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football in Alabama is predicated by the arrival of Nick Saban, or even Gene Chizik for that matter.

I said exactly the same thing in so many words over on the BCS thread at nearly the same time in response to another question

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Stephen, I think you misunderstand my statement. The point that was being made is there are plenty of great coaches outside of the SEC. And I think that Urban Meyer is a prime example of a great coach that doesn't matter where he goes, will impact a team, conference and potentially all of college football. The distinction I was trying to make however is that perhaps there is more to winning championships than simply having a good head coach. (Ahem, Charlie Weiss, Dennis Erickson, Dave Wandstedt, the list goes on.)

As to the culture of the Southeastern US, football is an integral part of it. It is woven into the fabric of our existence nearly from birth in most states below the Mason-Dixon line (Sometimes even from CONCEPTION. I for one have seen baby nurseries painted in team color).

I won't speak for the cultures of Louisiana, Florida or Tennessee, but as for the football culture in the state Alabama, I think anyone who has ever worn Crimson and White or Burnt Orange and Blue would happily inform you about said culture. (I'm sure even our Division II Team from UNA in Florence, AL might have some input, or perhaps Troy University further south) However, being a subjective matter and one of personal taste I will leave that up to you to figure out. I however will simply say you'd be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football in Alabama is predicated by the arrival of Nick Saban, or even Gene Chizik for that matter.

Framed within the context of your statement, I am talking about culture = victories and/or Championships. Sure, the dyed-in-the-wool fanbases go back generations. The winning, however, doesn't happen until the program acquires a top flight coach that in turn brings in top flight talent. How many times have we seen this happen over the last 15 years in college football? USC was floundering before Carroll, Oklahoma before Stoops, Texas before Brown, LSU and Alabama before Saban.

[OLS]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

I however will simply say you'd be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football in Alabama is predicated by the arrival of Nick Saban, or even Gene Chizik for that matter.

I know you are not HE, but there was another diehard homer in this thread that said quite the opposite.
Nick Saban was brought in to completely change the culture of Alabama football from one of losing and
scandal to one of winning and goodness and character. I only remember it because while he was forcing
that down my throat, he was calling my preferred team a bunch of criminals and thugs that he predicted
"would turn out as losers in life." ---edit---and were a stain on the SEC, the 2011 season, and any hopes
we might have of him watching either the championship game or the NCG in February. (eyeroll)

[OLS]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Pray tell, where was that, "culture" prior to Nick Saban becoming the head coach at Alabama (or LSU for that matter)?

Odd that you would highlight those two teams, and especially LSU. LSU and Bama have had one
thing without a doubt for WELL over a century, and that is that no matter how bad the teams were losing,
they never failed to sell out their venues. In LA there IS a culture. Not only do we compete on very
even turf against FL and TX for best football players in the country, but our fans never give up.
The Saints were, as Howard Cosell once put it on Monday Night Football as I sat and watched,
the 'galvanized garbage can of the N--F--L...", and their fans NEVER gave up being behind the team.
Even the AINTS bagheads displayed their bags from fairly good seats in the dome.
You can't win a football culture argument in Louisiana. I will let the Crimson Elephants defend their own
team, because they don't listen to me anyway.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by OLS

Odd that you would highlight those two teams, and especially LSU. LSU and Bama have had one
thing without a doubt for WELL over a century, and that is that no matter how bad the teams were losing,
they never failed to sell out their venues. In LA there IS a culture. Not only do we compete on very
even turf against FL and TX for best football players in the country, but our fans never give up.
The Saints were, as Howard Cosell once put it on Monday Night Football as I sat and watched,
the 'galvanized garbage can of the N--F--L...", and their fans NEVER gave up being behind the team.
Even the AINTS bagheads displayed their bags from fairly good seats in the dome.
You can't win a football culture argument in Louisiana. I will let the Crimson Elephants defend their own
team, because they don't listen to me anyway.

I'm talking about the culture of winning, Brad. Rabid fandom has always run rampant in places that we're discussing. My argument, however, is that this, "culture" doesn't manifest itself in the win column like ninjavanish put forth, especially in lieu of a good/great coach (because with good coaches come good recruits).

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

For the SEC, it's a chance to prove (or further prove) that it's perhaps not the coaches that make the difference, but our culture.

[SvilleKid]

An interesting, historical perspective!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vid...ted/index.html

[Powers]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm talking about the culture of winning, Brad. Rabid fandom has always run rampant in places that we're discussing. My argument, however, is that this, "culture" doesn't manifest itself in the win column like ninjavanish put forth, especially in lieu of a good/great coach (because with good coaches come good recruits).

I think what Ninjavanish perhaps is arguing, and that I would as well, is that the culture of the SEC is directly correlated to schools getting good coaches, which then bring in good recruits and win. It is the culture of SEC schools and their fans to set such high standards and demands that a coaching carosel ensues into a winner is found.
Take Arkansas, Florida and South Carolina for example. They each have had a long history of mediocrity at some point in their program's past. Yet the culture of football in these regions still demanded better play/coaching until they stumbled upon or hired one.
This doesn't stem originally from a tradition of winning, but from something more intrinsic. Once these schools have a taste of winning, however, then you get even higher expectations.

For what it's worth, thats how I perceive how SEC culture shapes programs

[SvilleKid]

Well, I have to agree with Brad (can only see his post because of a quote). But he is 100% correct, and 100% got what Jeremy was referring to about our culture of football.

That culture is built from the ground up, from pee-wee thru high school and in our colleges. Let's pick another school, if it appears that we are zeroing in on only Bama and LSU. Tennessee. MY GOD! Have they suffered problems over the last decade or more (including coach issues)!! That doesn't stop them from filling their HUGE stadium! Or supporting their team. My wife worked in Knoxville last football season. Every Saturday of a home game, that town was full, and rocking! How about Vandy??? They are always the butt of jokes, but they are still well supported every year and always strive to win games. Kentucky, known for basketball, still competes with intense rivalries. The same can be said for Ole Miss, Miss State, UNA, Georgia Southern, South Carolina, Florida, UAB and on and on.

The south DOES NOT (currently) support youth teams very much in anything other than football, and baseball. No hockey, some basketball, but nowhere near as deeply as football. Some soccer (more now than when Ninja was in school, bit still very small percentages). From 6 years old (and younger), they thrive on FOOTBALL. I have a 9 year old nephew that I would easily put up against Brad or E.J. in terms of football knowledge and savvy. He beats me hands down. And he isn't alone, by any means. Football, probably more so than any other sport is lived and breathed from the womb to the grave as THE main sport in the south. Is it the lack of other sports played? Is it a culture thing that allows us to battle each other on a field instead of in the hollows and dells with guns?? Who can say. But it IS a culture of the sport. The coaches come and go. The players come and go. The awards and Championships come and go. But maybe they come more often because it is deeply supported and enjoyed. That is football culture! That is the "culture of football" that Jeremy is referring to. And that culture falls all the way down to the pee-wee level. Go to any Bama (and Louisiana) high school football game and tell them it is only about having winning coaches and programs! Good luck with that!!

And to top it all off, in support of the culture...... Was there any other conference thread on the forum with this much fervor?? I think not.

[ninjavanish]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Framed within the context of your statement, I am talking about culture = victories and/or Championships. Sure, the dyed-in-the-wool fanbases go back generations. The winning, however, doesn't happen until the program acquires a top flight coach that in turn brings in top flight talent. How many times have we seen this happen over the last 15 years in college football? USC was floundering before Carroll, Oklahoma before Stoops, Texas before Brown, LSU and Alabama before Saban.

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm talking about the culture of winning, Brad. Rabid fandom has always run rampant in places that we're discussing. My argument, however, is that this, "culture" doesn't manifest itself in the win column like ninjavanish put forth, especially in lieu of a good/great coach (because with good coaches come good recruits).

Stephen, it seems your argument preculdes itself. Because without the support of "dyed-in-the-wool fanbases", alumni, and monetary boosters, no such a top flight coach would employed (or employed for long) by a school and therefore the top flight talent you speak of would not follow as you detailed. I'm sorry my friend, but this sport starts with the support of the fans, and it is from those basic building blocks that championship teams are born. Ticket sales, donations and booster money are what draw coaches, top flight players, and championships. All pieces of the puzzle are important and it takes "the perfect storm", if you will, of all of them at once: broad fanbase, talented coaches, and talented players to cultivate a championship. But no piece is more integral to that equation as the culture of football within a given fanbase. Again, I think that you would be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football is predicated by the arrival of ANY coach ANYwhere. The flames of support may be fanned so to speak, but regardless, the fire comes from the so-called "rabid fandom". It is predicated on the fans supporting football. The arrival of a great coach or a top flight player or a championship is the direct result of the football culture of the region/area of interest. A coach may inspire a fanbase with great wins, and great players may endear themselves with memorable plays and performances, but they are all lost without the fans.

In each of the schools you mentioned above, it was not some invisible force that propelled those schools to hire great coaches. It was the desire in the fanbase (born through their football culture) to see the once great teams return to greatness.

[ninjavanish]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Stephen, it seems your argument preculdes itself. Because without the support of "dyed-in-the-wool fanbases", alumni, and monetary boosters, no such a top flight coach would employed (or employed for long) by a school and therefore the top flight talent you speak of would not follow as you detailed. I'm sorry my friend, but this sport starts with the support of the fans, and it is from those basic building blocks that championship teams are born. Ticket sales, donations and booster money are what draw coaches, top flight players, and championships. All pieces of the puzzle are important and it takes "the perfect storm", if you will, of all of them at once: broad fanbase, talented coaches, and talented players to cultivate a championship. But no piece is more integral to that equation as the culture of football within a given fanbase. Again, I think that you would be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football is predicated by the arrival of ANY coach ANYwhere. The flames of support may be fanned so to speak, but regardless, the fire comes from the so-called "rabid fandom". It is predicated on the fans supporting football. The arrival of a great coach or a top flight player or a championship is the direct result of the football culture of the region/area of interest. A coach may inspire a fanbase with great wins, and great players may endear themselves with memorable plays and performances, but they are all lost without the fans.

In each of the schools you mentioned above, it was not some invisible force that propelled those schools to hire great coaches. It was the desire in the fanbase (born through their football culture) to see the once great teams return to greatness.

Wow, reading over this post again later, IT IS SO REDUNDANT.

Sorry about that.