The Wine Thread

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

Moses, most prices I have seen have been around $190-200.

I would rather have the Taittinger Comte de Champagne at $150-200. For under $150, Pierre Peters Les Chetillons is hard to beat.

Can anyone comment on these producers?

Perrier-Jouët
Montaudon
Bruno Gobillard
Gaston Chiquet
Gosset
Pommery
Pierre Ferrand
Godmé Père & Fils
Jean Laurent
Laurent-Perrier
René Geoffroy

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

A little brett goes a long way. I thought the most recent vintages aren't as "bretty"?

Yeah, this is Parker's most "popular" misconception that, unfortunately, has been bought by consumers. How does one "control" how much brett in in wine?

Funny, as I was having an online "discussion" with Parker on the subject and he pulled a bottle of Pegau out of his cellar and then immediately posted online that his bottle was "whistle clean", Laurence chimed in and said that ALL Pegaus have brett. You should visit the cellar/winery, its disgusting (mold on walls, barrels, etc.) Brett, from a technical standpoint, is the the single worst problem a wine can have.

[TheRiddick]

Pierre Ferrand is one of the better small house Cognacs around, IMO. Not cheap, but great. If you're into incredible Cognacs you should try Leopold Gourmel.

Of the sparklers on your list the one that "stands out" for me is Laurent-Perrier, really good stuff. Rene Geoffroy is good as well.

The other are mostly big houses (Pommery, Perrir-Jouet, Gosset) and although produce some really god wine I prefer to give my money to the small guys Gosset made its name on their Rose bottling and while good I had it next to that Etoile Rose I listed above and for me Etoile blew it away, handily. At a much better price.

The rest of the list is small, family owned wineries and while all are pretty good (I don't think you'll find a dud on the list) the few others I listed are probably better wines. The good thing about your list (the small guys) is that they are not that expensive (relatively) and you can try them all over the time to see what you like without spending a huge chunk of money.

For my money, if I really want to splurge, nothing beats Salon, IMO. They only release 3-4 times a decade and sell off bulk wine in the "off" years.

Costco in CA carries Piper-Heidsieck Rose Sauvage, at a really good price (used to see it at $40?), you should see if you can score a bottle. I know, its a large house, but the wine is undervalued, IMO, at that price.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

You should visit the cellar/winery, its disgusting (mold on walls, barrels, etc.) Brett, from a technical standpoint, is the the single worst problem a wine can have.

It's bad due to hygiene of the wine making facility. I can see if you are running a sterile and top notch facility and "add" brett like some beer makers due, but this is not true in Rhone wines. I don't mind a little brett in CdP as it is considered "terrior" to some extent, but brett can get out of control and dominate a wine in no time.

I doubt anyone would add brett to wine.

As for Parker, he knows when it's "pop and pour" the Brett may not come out, but it will sitting in the decanter for any real amount of time.

[landhoney]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

How does one "control" how much brett in in wine?

K-met and sterile filtering then blending? Seriously though I have no idea, guess it doesn't work like that in most cases.

Its interesting to me as a former wine researcher for the University of Maryland we hated Brett, but actually kept carboys of flawed wine for educational purposes, we would have flawed wines to clearly show what a 'flaw' tasted like. Whatever Brett strain(s) we had up there had the classic 'mousy' character, funny as I don't recall getting that flavor/character in any beer.

Now as a beer brewer who loves wild/sour ales I am adding Brettanomyces intentionally to my beers.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

This is the same thing Parker claims, brett is "terroir". And I say BS! Here is the challenge I presented to him, which he obviously declined as he knew he is set up for utter failure. Same one goes to you:

I will set up a blind test, each and every bottle will be a single varietal (Cab, Merlot, etc.). Each and every one will be infected with brett. All I want you to tell me is what varietal is in every bottle, nothing more than that.

You won't be able to as brett will be the single most defining character in each wine. How is that "terroir"? How is brett in France differ from, say, bretty bottle made in Australia or Mongolia? They all smell and taste the same at that point and the only thing they will all show is brett. BTW, frernch are not the only "guilty" party, OR Pinots are notorious for brett as well (hmmm, they do claim "Burgundian" style).
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Seth,

Good points and ideas. Sterile filtering is the only safe option. And wineries in CA are known to banish bretty barrels from the floor altogether, brett spreads like wild fire and I've seen barrels literally carted out to the parking lot for the owner to remove them ASAP. At the facility I am one intern a few years back was doing punch downs (per owner's request) and decided to cut corners. Instead of cleaning the punch down tool (stainless steel) between each bin he simply went from bin to bin (hey, not his wine and not his problem, right?). You guessed it, many wines at the facility that year (this is a shared facility) experienced a problem with brett, I was the lucky one since that particular day I was there and told the idiot to stay away from my bins (as well as educating him on proper winery standards of cleanliness, too bad I caught it too late into the task and a good number of bins were already infected).

Brett in beer is a different ball game, many Belgian beers are great because of brett.

Does brett end up in tobacco? Is that the "'barnyard" smell?

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by BC-Axeman

Does brett end up in tobacco? Is that the "'barnyard" smell?

Yes.

Had a 2009 Montebuena Rioja tonight with a friend. Best wine I have had in a while. Very good wine. I made a point to write a note to myself to pick up a few bottles to put away. And I think I spent like $12, so good value wine.

Popped a 2007 Chateau Campuget Costieres de Nimes tonight. The nose is awesome on this wine. Sweet raspberry, and like a chocolate/earthy component too. I like it.

[SeanGAR]

Different Brett clones have different aroma characteristics, so Brett can't be regarded as a single entity (same as Sacc. cere., different clones express different levels of enzymes involved in flavor production).

To get Brett character in beer, you need to leave the beer to ferment many months to years, even if you innoculate. A Lambic we made (added 2 Brett clones) that had zero Brett character after 6 months had the defined character after 12. If you're making beer on a regular homebrew schedule (make-drink within a couple of months), the chance of getting Brett character accidentally is close to zero.

Oh, and I don't link the horse poo smell of a good Cuban with Brett ... they seem quite different aroma characteristics to me.

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Pierre Ferrand is one of the better small house Cognacs around, IMO. Not cheap, but great. If you're into incredible Cognacs you should try Leopold Gourmel.

Of the sparklers on your list the one that "stands out" for me is Laurent-Perrier, really good stuff. Rene Geoffroy is good as well.

The other are mostly big houses (Pommery, Perrir-Jouet, Gosset) and although produce some really god wine I prefer to give my money to the small guys Gosset made its name on their Rose bottling and while good I had it next to that Etoile Rose I listed above and for me Etoile blew it away, handily. At a much better price.

The rest of the list is small, family owned wineries and while all are pretty good (I don't think you'll find a dud on the list) the few others I listed are probably better wines. The good thing about your list (the small guys) is that they are not that expensive (relatively) and you can try them all over the time to see what you like without spending a huge chunk of money.

For my money, if I really want to splurge, nothing beats Salon, IMO. They only release 3-4 times a decade and sell off bulk wine in the "off" years.

Costco in CA carries Piper-Heidsieck Rose Sauvage, at a really good price (used to see it at $40?), you should see if you can score a bottle. I know, its a large house, but the wine is undervalued, IMO, at that price.

Cool Salon video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrC3UFOGLY

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Different Brett clones have different aroma characteristics, so Brett can't be regarded as a single entity (same as Sacc. cere., different clones express different levels of enzymes involved in flavor production).

To get Brett character in beer, you need to leave the beer to ferment many months to years, even if you innoculate. A Lambic we made (added 2 Brett clones) that had zero Brett character after 6 months had the defined character after 12. If you're making beer on a regular homebrew schedule (make-drink within a couple of months), the chance of getting Brett character accidentally is close to zero.

Oh, and I don't link the horse poo smell of a good Cuban with Brett ... they seem quite different aroma characteristics to me.

There are just 2 strains, basically, when it comes to wine, arrive with the grapes off the vineyard (they are basically the "bad" yeasts).

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

There are just 2 strains, basically, when it comes to wine, arrive with the grapes off the vineyard (they are basically the "bad" yeasts).

Recent work on clonal variation and Brett flavors came from Vigentini et al FEMS yeast research 2008 & Renouf et al IJWR 2009.

From the second reference, "However, different B. bruxellensis strains exhibit varying characteristics, particularly their capacity to produce volatile phenols. This implies that certain strains are more prejudicial than others.".

[landhoney]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

To get Brett character in beer, you need to leave the beer to ferment many months to years, even if you innoculate. A Lambic we made (added 2 Brett clones) that had zero Brett character after 6 months had the defined character after 12. If you're making beer on a regular homebrew schedule (make-drink within a couple of months), the chance of getting Brett character accidentally is close to zero.

You can use Brett as a primary fermenter, instead of a 'normal' Sach strain and it will be done in a few weeks (or normal ale time frame, non-high gravity beer of course) if pitched at the right rate (higher than normal ale strains).
It does not give the same characteristics, i.e. the super low atennuation, as when used in conjunction with normal yeast strains in beers like Lambics, Flanders, etc but you can get very interesting Brett characteristics in all Brett fermented beers that are done in a short timeframe. Commercial examples like Mo Betta Bretta, Sanctification are made this way.

edit> Also, sorry oenophiles (myself included), I know this is the wine thread not the beer thread.

Also, I know there is no substitute for the wild/sour ales done the slow way. I have two oak barrels full of beer that has been aging for more than a year at this point because I love that style. They are my favorite beers by far.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by landhoney

Also, I know there is no substitute for the wild/sour ales done the slow way. I have two oak barrels full of beer that has been aging for more than a year at this point because I love that style. They are my favorite beers by far.

Party when they're done?

[bigswol2]

Originally Posted by kelmac07

Could never get into drinking wine...could not get past the vinegar smell. Every wine that I tried, had that smell. And then a friend turned me onto Moscato...WOW!!! Like drinking fresh grapes.

Mac get you some Hinnant Muscadine wine! Yooooowza!

[rizzle]

Found a new bottle I like, Meiomi Pinot Noir. I don't know all y'alls jargon, so I'll just say, to me a really good find. Clean and crisp and smooth. And at $19.99, a nice buy.

[mmblz]

my stash of $10/bottle Chateau Souverain Cabernet is getting just low enough that I'm starting to be depressed at the idea of either spending more or drinking crappy wine after this runs out...