First Firearm Thread.

[sevans105]

So....I've never had much experience with guns. Was thinking about getting into shooting. I've got a couple buddies who shoot several times a week and I'd like to join them. They've been letting me borrow rifles, shotguns, handguns but I'd like to have my own.

I'm looking for a rifle. I'm interested in varmint type shooting. Don't really need massive ammo ability, mainly looking for accuracy at a relative distance. I like the "reach out and touch something" feeling. With borrowed rifles, I'm not bad. I can consistently do a 1 1/2 inch 5 round group at 250 yards after a few test shots.

I've shot 22 long, 223, 30-06, 30-30, and 308. I was the most accurate at the longest distance with the 308, but I'm open to suggestions.

What do you guys like/recommend?

[TJarv]

.223 or .220 swift would probably work well for you

[emopunker2004]

.223 is a very popular varmint round. They even make varmint ar-15's lol. .223 will reach out to the distance you want. I think a .308 is a bit much for varmint shooting. You can always look into 300 blackout. Do you own an Ar-15 or plan on it in the near future? If so then the plus to getting something in .223 would be ammo interchangeability.

[Remo]

Originally Posted by sevans105

So....I've never had much experience with guns. Was thinking about getting into shooting. I've got a couple buddies who shoot several times a week and I'd like to join them. They've been letting me borrow rifles, shotguns, handguns but I'd like to have my own.

I'm looking for a rifle. I'm interested in varmint type shooting. Don't really need massive ammo ability, mainly looking for accuracy at a relative distance. I like the "reach out and touch something" feeling. With borrowed rifles, I'm not bad. I can consistently do a 1 1/2 inch 5 round group at 250 yards after a few test shots.

I've shot 22 long, 223, 30-06, 30-30, and 308. I was the most accurate at the longest distance with the 308, but I'm open to suggestions.

What do you guys like/recommend?

17 HRM

[sevans105]

Originally Posted by emopunker2004

.223 is a very popular varmint round. They even make varmint ar-15's lol. .223 will reach out to the distance you want. I think a .308 is a bit much for varmint shooting. You can always look into 300 blackout. Do you own an Ar-15 or plan on it in the near future? If so then the plus to getting something in .223 would be ammo interchangeability.

Don't have any long rifles at the moment. As for the AR-15, yeah, they look cool and all, but I really don't see a need or desire to own one.

Remo, what is a 17 HRM?

I don't hunt, so this will be more of a target rifle. Mostly interested in seeing how far I can shoot and maintain accuracy. I'm kind of a math/stats geek so ballistics tables and striving for "perfect" is what I'm trying to accomplish. I realize that an "off the shelf" gun will never be able to do that for me, but I need something to start with.

[emopunker2004]

If its all about ditance and accuracy check out .338 Lapua

[Remo]

Originally Posted by sevans105

Don't have any long rifles at the moment. As for the AR-15, yeah, they look cool and all, but I really don't see a need or desire to own one.

Remo, what is a 17 HRM?

I don't hunt, so this will be more of a target rifle. Mostly interested in seeing how far I can shoot and maintain accuracy. I'm kind of a math/stats geek so ballistics tables and striving for "perfect" is what I'm trying to accomplish. I realize that an "off the shelf" gun will never be able to do that for me, but I need something to start with.

The .17 HMR round is similar to rounds developed by dedicated rimfire wildcatters who worked to create a rimfire cartridge with an exceptionally flat trajectory. These wildcatters were seeking to match the ballistics of the obsolete 5mm Remington Magnum Rimfire, which was made from 1970 to 1974, and was to that point the fastest rimfire cartridge ever produced.[4] With 5mm (.20 caliber) diameter barrels and bullets being virtually unavailable at the time (the 5mm RMR was the last commercial 5mm round until the 2004 release of the centerfire .204 Ruger), the commercially available .17 caliber became their bullet of choice. The .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire was the logical parent case, rather than 5mm RMR (with its unique case head size, which requires a significantly different bolt and magazine), because it was commonly available, and it is a far larger and stronger case than the next largest .22 Long Rifle. The .17 caliber wildcats not only met, but far exceeded the 5 mm RMR's velocities and flat trajectory. The accuracy of these cartridges was also quite good. However, the downrange energy of the 5mm RMR is superior to both .22 WMR and .17 HMR, so there is still potential in the 5mm rimfire for wildcatters.[5]

Hornady, in conjunction with Marlin Firearms and Sturm, Ruger (manufacturers in the rimfire rifle market), followed much the same path. With the .22 WMR case as the starting point, a simple barrel change was sufficient for most .22 WMR firearms to chamber the new cartridge. In 2002 the first rifles and ammunition began appearing on the market. While the ammunition was relatively expensive due to the high-performance .17 caliber bullets used, it was still cheaper than most centerfire ammunition. By 2004 CCI, Federal Cartridge and Remington had each introduced .17 HMR ammunition offerings.[3]

[edit] Availability





A .17 HMR round (left) compared with a .22 Long Rifle round (right)
Cartridges for .17 HMR come with bullets that weigh 15.5-grain (1.00 g), 17-grain (1.1 g), and 20-grain (1.3 g), and come in designs such as polymer (ballistic) tipped, hollow points, soft points, and FMJ. The terminal ballistics of the lightweight expanding bullets limit the .17 HMR to small game animals and varmints. .17 HMR ammunition is less common and more expensive than the .22 caliber rimfire rounds, but this is changing as the popularity of .17 HMR rifles gathers momentum.[6] 17 HMR rifles and ammo have continued to sell briskly. It may be interesting to note that large retailer Wal-Mart sells CCI .17 HMR in some of their suburban locations. The same cannot be said for similar special purpose cartridges such as the 6.8 SPC that are rising in popularity because of their ballistic properties.

Following the success of the .17 HMR, the .17 Hornady Mach 2 (.17 HM2), was introduced in early 2004. The .17 HM2 is based on the .22 LR (slightly longer in case dimensions) case necked down to .17 caliber using the same bullet as the HMR but at a velocity of approximately 2,100 feet per second (640 m/s) in the 17-grain (1.1 g) polymer tip loading.

A growing number of companies offer .17 HMR ammunition. CCI Ammunition loads all of the .17 HMR ammunition for the CCI, Federal Cartridge, Hornady, and Remington brands. However, the ammunition is loaded with different bullets to different specifications.[7] Ammunition is also available from Winchester, PMC and Sellier & Bellot.

Citing safety concerns about the round's use in semi-automatic firearms, Remington issued a product safety warning and recall notice.[8][9]

[edit] Comparison with .22 LR Ammunition

[edit] Advantages
■Faster flight: 2350-2550fps compared to the popular ≈1255fps .22LR High Velocity. (.22LR Hyper Velocity can reach ≈1700fps)
■Flatter trajectory. This means that the user will not have to adjust for the projectile's drop as much as with the .22 LR
■Longer range
■As the round is smaller there is less chance of ricochet
■More accurate, 1 MOA or better
■More powerful
■Less susceptible to cross winds due to high ballistic co-efficient
■More effective on larger game.

[edit] Disadvantages
■Much more expensive
■Too powerful at close distance for small game, although soft point bullets are available
■The cartridge is louder and there are no subsonic bullets available




[edit] Comparison with .22 WMR Ammunition

[edit] Advantages
■Faster flight: 2350-2550fps compared to the 1910fps 22Wmr 40gr rounds
■Flatter trajectory and better ballistic co-efficient
■Longer range. Bullets expand better especially at long range e.g. 150 yards
■As the round is smaller there is less chance of ricochet
■More accurate, 1 MOA or better
■Less susceptible to cross winds due to high ballistic co-efficient

[edit] Disadvantages
■Less kinetic energy
■Slightly more expensive



Look into them

[jluck]

Originally Posted by sevans105

So....I've never had much experience with guns. Was thinking about getting into shooting. I've got a couple buddies who shoot several times a week and I'd like to join them. They've been letting me borrow rifles, shotguns, handguns but I'd like to have my own.

I'm looking for a rifle. I'm interested in varmint type shooting. Don't really need massive ammo ability, mainly looking for accuracy at a relative distance. I like the "reach out and touch something" feeling. With borrowed rifles, I'm not bad. I can consistently do a 1 1/2 inch 5 round group at 250 yards after a few test shots.

I've shot 22 long, 223, 30-06, 30-30, and 308. I was the most accurate at the longest distance with the 308, but I'm open to suggestions.

What do you guys like/recommend?

.204 Ruger.

[emopunker2004]

So I think I'm going to apply to get my 03 FFL (C&R). This way I can buy some C&R guns and have the shipped direct to me with no transfer. The fee is only $30 for the application

[Stevez]

Justin, if you proceed with trying to get your FFL, please keep us posted. I have toyed with that idea myself but hear it is a real pain in the ass. Seems almost to good to be true.

[Ashcan Bill]

Originally Posted by emopunker2004

So I think I'm going to apply to get my 03 FFL (C&R). This way I can buy some C&R guns and have the shipped direct to me with no transfer. The fee is only $30 for the application

Originally Posted by Stevez

Justin, if you proceed with trying to get your FFL, please keep us posted. I have toyed with that idea myself but hear it is a real pain in the ass. Seems almost to good to be true.

A C&R license is different from a standard FFL. The C&R allows collecting of firearms more than fifty years old, and isn't geared toward public sales.

[dijit]

Originally Posted by Ashcan Bill

A C&R license is different from a standard FFL. The C&R allows collecting of firearms more than fifty years old, and isn't geared toward public sales.

I have heard there is also a home FFL as well that is geared towards the more modern collector that may do some trading but does not have a store front. I am currently trying to get all the details about this one. If its real I will post details here.

[Stevez]

Thanks for the info on the home FFL and the C&R. I never knew of that. Steve

[Digs]

Originally Posted by dijit

I have heard there is also a home FFL as well that is geared towards the more modern collector that may do some trading but does not have a store front. I am currently trying to get all the details about this one. If its real I will post details here.

I have never heard of a "home ffl" I have the type 3 ffl and work part time for a type a 7


Usage
Type 1 Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 3 tax stamp.
Type 2 Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker.
Type 3 Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms.
Type 6 Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than ammunition for destructive devices and armor piercing ammunition.
Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year.[1]
Type 7 Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.
Type 8 Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year Can also import Title II NFA firearms with class 1 tax stamp.
Type 9 Dealer in firearms, including destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional Federal Explosives License[2] as a Dealer of High Explosives.

[Digs]

Originally Posted by Ashcan Bill

A C&R license is different from a standard FFL. The C&R allows collecting of firearms more than fifty years old, and isn't geared toward public sales.

Bill, a C&R doesn't have to be 50 years old, I have many many 90's weapons that are C&R


-Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

-Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest;

-Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

[emopunker2004]

Yeh I'm just going for my C&R FFL. There are many people who have run their 01 FFL out of their home. It's difficult in some places though due to zoning restrictions. Just gonna get my 03 FFL so I can order some C&R stuff online without having to deal with a transfer at an 01 FFL. I'm wanting an m48 mauser, Swiss K11 or K31, Tokarev pistol, maybe a Garand when I have the money. But for it only costing $30, I figure why not; it costs almost that much for one transfer.

[dijit]

Originally Posted by Digs

I have never heard of a "home ffl" I have the type 3 ffl and work part time for a type a 7


Usage
Type 1 Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 3 tax stamp.
Type 2 Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker.
Type 3 Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms.
Type 6 Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than ammunition for destructive devices and armor piercing ammunition.
Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year.[1]
Type 7 Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.
Type 8 Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year Can also import Title II NFA firearms with class 1 tax stamp.
Type 9 Dealer in firearms, including destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional Federal Explosives License[2] as a Dealer of High Explosives.

Maybe it is a type 1. I will have to find the website and see what it said again. I just remember it saying that it was easy to get your FFL with this one and it could be from home, no need for a store front.

[emopunker2004]

that's a regular 01 ffl. same as a store front ffl. same ffl. it's easy to get if you make sure you get the zoning approved by the zoning board

[Ashcan Bill]

Originally Posted by Digs

Bill, a C&R doesn't have to be 50 years old, I have many many 90's weapons that are C&R


-Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

-Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest;

-Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

While I'm familiar with the wording, I've never personally known anyone who was able to purchase anything other than older milsurp weapons with a C&R license. Now you have me curious. What recently manufactured weapons from the nineties fall under C&R regulations that you've been able to purchase? I may have to reconsider picking up a type 03.

[Digs]

Originally Posted by Ashcan Bill

While I'm familiar with the wording, I've never personally known anyone who was able to purchase anything other than older milsurp weapons with a C&R license. Now you have me curious. What recently manufactured weapons from the nineties fall under C&R regulations that you've been able to purchase? I may have to reconsider picking up a type 03.

CZ-82
P64
Polish P82 (to be added soon)

As with any imports this just a snap shot of right now, they come and go.