College Hoops Thread 2011-2012

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by SD Beerman

You got that right!

Well, that makes one!

Update soon.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Update soon.

OK, I lied. I was midway thru my post when 9/10ths of it disappeared, and now my game has started. Screw it . . . do your own update today. Me, I got irons in the fire.

[jcruse64]

I've not seen a lot of the tourney action the last couple of days, just highlights, but there have been some good ones, it appears. Big Least Tourney is VERY interesting, and the Bearcats are playing Ricky P's Cards right now for the title, and both playing for a decent Dance seed; I think they'll both get in now. Mick's Maniacs are looking dangerous.

So Kansas goes down, and Mizzou wins the Big 12 Tourney; does KU lose the #1 seed to the Tigers now????? I would think so, personally.

SEC shaping up to be a Cats victory tomorrow, but Vandy getting to the title game is definitely a possible monkey wrench.

So, did the Tarheels get help with some calls/non-calls? I was working and did not see, but Gottfried is not a happy camper. Oh, and dook losed to FSU again .

[jcruse64]

Oh yeah, I saw a quick byte on the Auburn point-shaving scheme, and definitely agree this is HUGE. Definitely death penalty-type stuff for the Tigers. Really sad.

[jcruse64]

OK, so UK overall #1 and a 1 seed, even after the "gimme" game to Vandy today. Horrible game, and the Cats better wake up quick.

UNC gets a 1 seed, and though it surprises me after the loss today, I don't know who else t would go to. Congrats, Poet!

I can see 'Cuse getting the 1 seed, and I guess the same for the "other" MSU.

A little disappointed in Murray State's 6 seed, as we were all hoping for a 4, but it's still our (or any other OVC team that I'm aware of) best seeding ever. Gotta do some lookup on Colorado State now. Also trying to score tickets, as they have us playing just a couple of hours away in Louisville, which was nice!!!!

Looking forward to an exciting week.

[jsnake]

MIZZOU BIG XII CHAMPIONS!!!!

Woot Woot

What a game and what a way to leave the BIG XII.

[DaBear]

So can we leave the ACC? I mean seriously, this(note: NSFW due to language, also change the stars to the f word if you want to read, don't know why they had to use it in the page link) on top of the tape incident in the BC game(theres a link to that story in the linked page). Here's hoping we don't have any ACC refs in the tourney.

[The Poet]

Instead of regressing to talk about action that's already past, I feel it is best to move on to the tournament now. OK, so every 1-seed save for the Spartans lost in their conference tournaments, and some teams felt they got worst seeds (or their nemesis got better seeds) than they had earned, but now's the time has come to get over it and strap them up. Survive, and advance. Yet I'll take a while to address a few of the things mentioned above:

The Big East tourney is always a good show, which I appreciate. But so were virtually all of the tourneys, and not just The Big Boys. Look at, for instance, the A-10, where the Bonnies got themselves in by running the table. My only problem with these tourneys stems from my personal history as an ACC guy. For 30 years we were the only conference with a tourney, and everybody called us fools and idiots for doing this. We, well we'd just smile and say "OK, whatever. You don't get it, and that's just fine. You do your thing, we'll do ours." Now all but the Ivy has a league tournament, giving some in-conference Cinderella a shot at the Dance, and everybody and their cousin crows about how great it is, especially their OWN particular league tourney. Me? I'm left with pretty much the same reaction . . . "OK, whatever."

I felt Kansas came into THEIR tourney with an inside shot at a 1-seed, and much like Carolina would potentially secure it by making the Big12 championship game. Nota bene, I said MAKING the final, not WINNING it. As evidence, see UNC. Meanwhile, the Spartans needed to not only make, but win the Big Ten to grab that spot. Ohio State was likely a little lower on the chart, and probably a 2-seed regardless, while Mizzou's poor RPI and SoS put them out of the picture despite their league success. All that being said, I don't believe there's any difference whatsoever between a 1- and a 2-seed, and no significance difference between these and a spot on the 3-line. Regardless, you still have to win your early games, then knock off the same guys to get to the Final Four, so who cares? It's bragging rights, that's all, and with the way the NCAA schedules first-round games close to home for the marquee teams anyway (the Heels are the top-seed in the MidWest, and open in Greensboro, for instance) it's no big wuff.

Joe, I'm not sure your Racers deserve a 4-seed, but maybe a 5 would have been more fair than a 6-spot. But as above, you win your first game or two, and where's the problem? Again, you gotta win your games, no matter who you face, so just be ready to play ball, and forget about the rest.

Jake, congratulations to the Missouri Tigers for taking the Big12Minus2 Conference tournament title, and leaving that sinking ship in style. Good luck in the Dance. You should not need much against Norfolk State, but you may need some against either the Gators or the Cavaliers in your next game. With your guard-heavy style, neither will be a cakewalk, believe me.

And Bear, that link led me to a page that was "no longer available", but I'm assuming you're still whining about what you thought were a few non-calls in that UNC/NCSU game. I'm tempted to merely remind you that you got your bid (even if you had to sweat it out until the very final end yesterday), and that you didn't have that bid before the ACC tourney started, so why are you still bellyaching when you should be preparing for Larry's SDSU Aztecs instead. But let me point out that it was the Wolfpack who decided to turn that game into a hard-contact contest, and who started fouling hard durnig player introductions. Whining about a call or two that did not go your way is like those two former 'Pack players who thought they had the right to interfere with the scorers' bench while they cussed out the officials, then whined about the insult after they were kicked out of the arena. You want to leave the ACC? OK, if that's gonna be the @$$hole attitude you want to bring back into the league, one that hasn't been a part of the conference since Frank McGuire took the Gamecocks out of the mix, then go join the Big Ten, where muggings are common.

Maybe tomorrow we can actually talk about some hoops, OK?

[jcruse64]

Heh, a 4 seed, at a 12 ranking would have been SWEET, but yeah, a 6 is fair. I've noted before that I thought we were no better than a 18-20 ranking during the season, even w/ the St. Mary's win. It is pretty fantastic for this team to get the best seed ever for the OVC ( I think). Unfortunately, the last, best seed we had was an 8, and a game against a Rhode Island team we should have popped, but we were tagged in the nose instead. As Herm would say, "You PLAYYYY to WIN the Game!!!!" .

Best thing is, we play in Louisville Thursday, and hopefully Saturday. But...Colorado State is coming in to win too, and the boys gotta play their game like there's no tomorrow. Can't wait to see it in person!

Looks to me like a good Dance is coming. I still am not sure I like the format for the play-ins. Why the mix of 16's and 14's and such-like? Make all the play-in winners get the 16 seed to play the 1 seed on Thursday/Friday.

And DaBear; welcome to college ball. SEC has horrible refs that make poor calls. The OVC is in the same boat, and so are most of the conferences. Some good refs out there too, but some are sub-standard, and some are maybe even rotten on purpose. I don't know how to fix it though. I would NOT want to ref.

[DaBear]

Originally Posted by The Poet

And Bear, that link led me to a page that was "no longer available", but I'm assuming you're still whining about what you thought were a few non-calls in that UNC/NCSU game. I'm tempted to merely remind you that you got your bid (even if you had to sweat it out until the very final end yesterday), and that you didn't have that bid before the ACC tourney started, so why are you still bellyaching when you should be preparing for Larry's SDSU Aztecs instead. But let me point out that it was the Wolfpack who decided to turn that game into a hard-contact contest, and who started fouling hard durnig player introductions. Whining about a call or two that did not go your way is like those two former 'Pack players who thought they had the right to interfere with the scorers' bench while they cussed out the officials, then whined about the insult after they were kicked out of the arena. You want to leave the ACC? OK, if that's gonna be the @$$hole attitude you want to bring back into the league, one that hasn't been a part of the conference since Frank McGuire took the Gamecocks out of the mix, then go join the Big Ten, where muggings are common.

Wasn't even complaining about the calls in the game. Hell if we would have been able to pass the ball the last 15 damn seconds we would have had at least gotten it to OT.

The article is about one of the refs yelling back at Gottfried after he yelled "Thats a charge!" on one of the no-calls with "Shut your f***ing a** up." I would rather not be attending and supporting a school that is a member of an athletic conference that allows its refs to behave in that manner.

I wasn't even going to bring up the whole Karl Hess thing, but since you went ahead and did that for me, lets go ahead and discuss that. Yes, I will concede Hess has a right to eject any fans he deems belligerent, its part of the risk of going to any sporting event as a fan. But, it is entirely unprofessional to not follow your own protocol when doing so. Also, I would like to note that Gugliotta and Corchiani used no profanity when yelling at the refs as your post indicates. I can guarantee that Hess heard worse coming from the student section and did nothing. I'm not arguing he singled out Gugliotta and Corchiani, just that he used them as an example, and in doing so had them removed from the game in an entirely improper manner.

Then lets throw on top the whole shoes issue in our game against BC which just adds more fuel to the fire of how the refs obviously came in with a grudge, however light. They wore tape on their shoes with the initials KH for Karl Hess for ONLY the opening match of the tourney, us vs BC, and took it off after the end of the game. If it was meant as a form of protest against the ACC and how the reprimanded Hess, then that tape would have stayed on the entire tournament, or until the ACC told them to remove it. The fact that it was removed as soon as our game wrapped up and the refs came back and reffed the following game minutes later without the tape is an entirely classless act and demonstrates a blatant bias, despite being employed to not have a bias.

Jcruse, CSU is comin in hot, but I feel like they'll fizzle out after that first game. I've got New Mexico as my sleeper to sneak into the Final 4, that whole bracket they're in is weak and could be anyone's to take. I don't think Syracuse will make it past the first weekend, especially after how they played in the Big East tourney, though that could just be the part of me that hates Cuse talking.

[The Poet]

Bear, I apologize if I jumped on you for misguided reasons, but as I said your link took me nowhere, so fault me for jumping to conclusions based on a false assumption. I'd agree in principle about the Googs and Corchiani issue, for in principle their verbosity would justify the referees throwing about 9000 people out of Cameron Indoor Stadium each and every game. But specifically, I was led to understand that they leaned far over the scorer's table between the men trying to do their job in order to voice their objections, which to me is unacceptable. As for holding onto grudges and expressing protests well after the fact, I've never been much of a fan of such attitudes, even if I understand their motivation, since it seems poor sportsmanship. That holds for my own team as well. Gerald Henderson was roundly booed in his return to Chapel Hill the year after he broke Tyler Hansbrough's nose, which was fine, but the signs in the stands that put a target on him went too far. Hell, it's just a game, brothers and sisters. Calm down.

Now, I do agree that a ref should not react in such a vulgar manner to a protest by a coach. My only question, which maybe you can answer, would be how hard had Gottfried been riding the refs all game. It was a rough contest, at least by ACC standards, with a lot of fouls called on both teams. If the ref blew up so badly with this merely being an understandable objection by Gottfried at a critical point of the game, that's one thing. However, if the coach had been riding him all afternoon, screaming and yelling at each and every call that did not go his way, or maybe wasn't made at all, it may not forgive the ref's vulgarity but it could somewhat explain it.

Can we get to some new news now, and leave the other stuff alone for now at least? The biggest news today is, sadly for Syracuse fans, not the fact that action starts this evening in Dayton with the so-called "play-in" first round action. It has been announced that starting center for the Orange, Fab Melo, has been declared ineligable for play throughout the entire NCAA tournament. This suspension has come from the university, not the NCAA, and the reason has yet to be released. However, the young man was suspended for (I believe) 3 games earlier this year for academic reasons. We cannot assume this is the case here, but it does indicate it may be a possibility.

Now if you know me, and have read my posts here throughout the year, you won't be surprised to hear I did not give Syracuse much of a chance to make the Final Four even before this announcement. Partly this is due to the fact that, despite the fact they have a number of very good athletes, they do not seem to have one true stud they can count on to get them a basket when they really really need one. But mainly it is because I do not trust that zone of theirs to fair especially well against quality opposition in "one-and-done" games night after night throughout tournament play. Historically, it hasn't, and I see no good reason to think it would this year, expecially without a Carmelo on the team. Now that they won't have another Melo available . . . well, I hope you haven't filled out your bracket yet.

This makes the third hit the Orange has taken this season. It began with the child molestation charges against ass't. coach Bernie Fine, then took another hit a week or so back with the story about former players failing drug tests without receiving the suspensions the university rules demanded. Now, coming into the tourney, only UK has played better as a team than the Orange (OK, Joe, maybe your Racers, but we're sort of talking apples and, uh, oranges here). Will this third strike against them destroy the team chemistry they have built all year, or will they refocus and fight even harder to overcome all the distractions and adjustments? I'd vote for the former, but it will be interesting to see what transpires. Specifically, I can't give UNC-Asheville much more than a puncher's shot at knocking them out, thus becoming the first 16-seed to take out a 1-seed, but their next game against either K-State or Southern Miss might be pretty interesting. Down the road, there's potential opponents like Vandy, Wisconsin, Florida State, and Ohio State. That ain't easy, even at full strength.

Maybe I'll get a chance to get back here and talk tonight's games, but for now I have some work to do . . . dammit.

[The Poet]

There are actually two NCAA games tonight, as you likely know, and so let's talk about them a bit.


Mississippi Valley State vs. Western Kentucky = These two mid-majors will battle for the right to get spanked by the UK Wildcats come Thursday. Hey, on the bright side, one of them will get a win in the NCAAs, right? The Delta Devils won the SWAC, and if they can survive and advance this evening it shall not be the first time this season they have faced top-flight opposition. Already this year they played Notre Dame, UNC, Arkansas, Northwestern, Ole Miss, Florida, and Wisconsin. That's a tough non-conference schedule by anyone's account. Of course, they lost them all, but at least they know what it is like to face tough matchups. The SWAC is not that tough, and the only quality non-conference win they got was against Tennessee State, the school that spoiled Joe's Racers perfecto. As for the Hilltoppers, they stunk up the Sun Belt all year long, but made a run to take the conference tourney and snag the automatic as a sub.500 team. Oddly, their only quality win this year was against Tenn. State too, but their "quality" losses were not as good, being to St. Joe's, VCU, Louisville, and Joe's Racers of Murray State. Western Kentucky has a better program historically, but I feel that the Delta Devils may have the better team this year. Still, I admit I don't know enough about either squad to give you a gimme here.


BYU vs. Iona = Nor do I here either, though again I am confident that the WCC is better than the MAAC. The Cougars finished 3rd in that league, yet still got the at-large, while the Gaels finished 1st in the regular season but failed in their tourney, and was a surprise to many that they got the at-large in the first place. That should tell you something. Speaking of Gaels, those from St. Mary's, as well as Gonzaga and San Francisco, give you some idea how tough the WCC could be. BYU had good wins over Nevada, Oregon, Utah, and Virginia Tech, with the Lobos being the only one that truly impresses me, while they lost to Wisconsin and Baylor outside the league. Iona lost to Purdue and Marshall, both a step down from those Ls above, with good wins over Maryland, St. Joe's, Richmond, Vermont, and those Nevada Lobos again. At the start of the season many experts picked Iona to be the main Cinderella story this year, and I give them a fair chance of surviving a Fredette-less BYU team. On the other hand, I do believe the Cougars have faced some consistently tougher competition, so they won't back down either. Flip a coin, enjoy the game, then wait to see who gets a shot at Marquette on Thursday.


If you have any insight, input, questions, objections, complaints, whines, boasts, whatever, feel free to pipe up. And if you wanna talk any NIT or other alphabet-soup tournament, just say so. Until later then, enjoy.

[jcruse64]

Hilltoppers advance on a wild last 5 minutes, with WKU coming back from double-digit deficit to win. Pretty exciting start...only wish it was carried on basic cable so we could see it too .

Yeah, I'm with both of you on 'Cuse. One story on #1 seeds has been that the SEC has not helped UK prepare for the Dance this year, but I say 'Cuse has a similar issue. With Melo now out, it's gonna be rough. K State will not be easy for them.

I'd LOVE to score tickets for game 2 Thursday, after Murray's game, but ain't EVEN gonna spend that much $$$! Will be listening on the drive home, I guess.

And I'm with ya, DaBear, on there being no excuse for a ref to go back on a coach like that for arguing a call. Coaches get tossed for talking to refs in such a manner, and it should go both ways.

[gettysburgfreak]

Slightly worried about my hometown team the CUSE since Fab Mello wont be playing in the tourney. We were a bad rebounding team with him and without him its really going to be an exploited weakness. Hopefully they can shoot the ball well compared to how they have been shooting recently to make up for it.

[The Poet]

For some damn reason the nice weather has brought out all the nutz and bozos, so I've been pressed for time. Two very strange games last night:


Western Kentucky 59 - Mississippi Valley State 58 = The Delta Devils had this in the bag, with a 16-point lead and under 5 to play. Well, I guess an ugly loss was appropriate, as this was an ugly game by both teams, with the possible exception of the late run by the Hilltoppers.

BYU 78 - Iona 72 = In contrast, this was 2 halves of very good hoops, albeit from opposing sides. The Gaels came out like a vintage Loyola-Marymount or UNLV team and ran the Cougars off the court, building a huge 25-point lead. Then they ran themselves out of gas, and BYU made the adjustments on both ends to erase the largest deficit in NCAA history to advance.


Tonight's games:


Lamar vs. Vermont = This has the potential to be another close one, and will decide who gets to challenge my Tar Heels on Friday. Pat Knight does not have the players his daddy used to get, and isn't the floor general Bobby was either, but he does seem to have inherited Papa's sparkling personality. Outside of league play, his Cardinals have "good" losses against quality competition like Louisville, Ohio State, Kentucky, and George Mason, but their best wins were with Charlotte and Tennessee Tech. The Catamounts lost to such guys as South Florida, Harvard, and Saint Louis, but toss into that a terrible loss to the Binghamton Bearcats, who had only 2 Ws all year. VT did get a nice win against ODU, so give them that. As I'm not about to pick who I want UNC to face, I'll leave that up to you.

South Florida vs. California = Now this could actually be a pretty decent game, like that BYU/Iona one. The Bulls had no good wins outside the Big East, and considering how Cincy and Louisville played at times this year I'm not sure how good those Ws actually were. Yet they did lose to some good teams, like ODU, VCU, Kansas, and Southern Miss, so they learned some things from that. As for the Golden Bears, I count myself amongst those who don't believe the Pac-12 is as abysmal as many others feel. True, I see no quality wins outside the league for Cal, but losing to Missouri, San Diego State, and UNLV counts for something in my book . . . especially when you consider that Mizzou had them as about the ONLY "tough" non-conference opponent, whereas Cal at least tried to play somebody else. I'm leaning towards the Bulls here, but it would not shock me if the Bears could shock the nation. Remember last year the Pac-10 was bad-mouthed all year, yet did pretty well in the NCAAs.


If I get a chance I'll come back to talk of early action scheduled tomorrow, when the fun kicks off for real. But if I don't get that chance, I hope you'll do what I plan on starting noon tomorrow, and enjoy.

[yourchoice]

I can't wait to get home so I can watch a ton of basketball tonight on the big screen!

Anyone predicting any upsets for the rest of Thursday's games? I thing Long Beach State will upset New Mexico, and I could see Colorado challenging UNLV, but I don't know if I'd call that an upset.

It looks like Syracuse is struggling without Melo against NC-Asheville. Like a lot of people, I had them losing early...but certainly not this early. Game is a long way from over, but they certainly shouldn't be down 4 at the half.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by yourchoice

I can't wait to get home so I can watch a ton of basketball tonight on the big screen!

Anyone predicting any upsets for the rest of Thursday's games? I thing Long Beach State will upset New Mexico, and I could see Colorado challenging UNLV, but I don't know if I'd call that an upset.

It looks like Syracuse is struggling without Melo against NC-Asheville. Like a lot of people, I had them losing early...but certainly not this early. Game is a long way from over, but they certainly shouldn't be down 4 at the half.

Well, what do you consider an upset? Is that a 6-11 game? From what I saw last weekend against Arizona, I can't give Colorado much of a shot against UNLV. How about 5-12? Can Harvard knock Vandy out? As psycho as the Comms have been this year, I could see the Crimson giving them all they can handle, especially if Vandy has another of their off nights . . . which they have had too often. Or maybe VCU over Wichita State? That may be your best shot at a 12 beating a 5 right there, though I don't expect VCU will make a run to the Final Four again this tourney, like they did last year. But they are confident, and they have been there before, so who knows?

I would expect that the Orange will come back in the 2nd half to survive their scare against UNC-A, but don't put all the onus on Melo being out. Not only have I expressed my doubts about that zone getting one through a tourney for YEARS now, you need take note that the Bulldogs have played some pretty good non-conference opponents this season, and are not intimidated by the fact. They started off at NCSU, hosted UNC-CH, visited U Conn and Tennessee, and played host to Charleston and Utah. If nothing else, they've seen some "big" names on the fronts of jerseys before today.

Update shortly.

P.S. - As for Long Beach vs. NM, I will point out that the 49ers lost at my Tar Heels by only 6, and won at Xavier by 10, so I agree they have a shot. At the moment, 8 left in the 1st, the Lobos are only up a point.

[The Poet]

With 4 1/2 left, Marquette is on the verge of putting the game against BYU out of reach. Maybe I'll have a final before I finish this, but as for last night:


Vermont 71 - Lamar 59 = The Catamounts take care of business in a very competent manner, and move on to face UNC tomorrow.

South Florida 65 - California 54 = So maybe I was wrong about the Pac-12 being under-rated, though after seeing how lousy that Colorado/Arizona championship game in the league finals was, I have no good excuse. On the other hand, I guess the Golden Bears did do pretty good at making their loss somewhat respectable, considering they scored only 13 stinkin' points in the first half.


In afternoon action today:


Murray State 58 - Colorado State 41 = Congratulations to Joe's Racers for knocking off the Rams to advance, though CSU helped them a ton in the 2nd half with bad shots and TOs. As this is the first time I've seen Joe's boys all year, I have no idea if this game was typical of their play or not. But from what I saw they have very nice perimeter defense, a few pretty effective scorers, and the hustle to force some action and create some of those loose balls. On the other hand, I have to say that, if you assume that Hornung kid is not the new Kurt Rambis, I fear that if they don't learn to box out a little better some team down the road is gonna kill them off the glass.

Kansas State 70 - Southern Miss 64 = The Manhattan 'Cats made enough good plays down the stretch to edge out a feisty SM team, who made enough late plays of their own to keep the issue in question until under a minute to go. All in all, a pretty good game on both sides.

Wisconsin 73 - Montana 49 = Both teams normally want a glacial style of play, but for the Badgers to rack up that many points . . . well, for them that's Runnin' Rebels scoring. I didn't get to see this, but they must have cleaned up on the defensive boards off Montana misses to get that many possessions, and maybe even a few breakaways.

Louisville 69 - Davidson 62 = Here's another game I did not see, but I'm not surprised the Wildcats gave Pitino so good a fight. Firstly, they have a pretty good team themselves. Secondly, the Cards have played down to their opponents all year long, so why should that be any different today?


As I figured, I now have that final:


Marquette 88 - BYU 68 = The Cougars fell 'way behind the Iona Gaels in their play-in game, yet came back to grab a victory. Well, they could not do the same today. The Golden Eagles jumped on them early and often, and kept the pressure going well enough to cruise into their match-up with Joe's Racers on Saturday. So Joe, if your guys really truly believe they should have gotten a higher seed, they can prove it then by knocking Marquette out of The Dance. From what I saw, that won't be easy.


Syracuse has taken control of their game against UNC-A, and are up 8 with 2:10 to go. It ain't over, but it is looking better for the Orange faithful. All the other games are too early and too close to even mean anything yet.


Back later.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Well, what do you consider an upset?

I use the betting line to gauge an upset. If the spread is around 3-4 or less, I consider it a mild upset. 4-5 or more, an upset. Sometimes just a higher seeding isn't indicitive of an upset, IMO.

[SD Beerman]

SDSU is a 6 seed and they are 2 point dogs to NC State......