LOST Notes

[weak_link]

^ is Sayid going to go 'Pet Cemetary' on 'em?

I love this show, totally addicted and have no idea how I missed this thread last year!

[dannysguitar]

Originally Posted by TheBeard

No way. The Others in the temple were legitimately surprised when Hurley told them that Jacob was dead. If the letter said anything about Jacob's death or return, they would have had that reaction (the scramble to get the defenses up) immediately.

It stands to reason that they did not intend to kill Sayid. They warned Jack that there would be risks in doing this, since the spring water was no longer clear (and, apparently, did not immediately heal the cut on the Japanese man's hand). They did what they were supposed to do and it did not work immediately. I'd like to believe that the spring water had enough power to heal Sayid but not enough to do it quickly; and so, the water kept Sayid's brain alive while it healed the rest of his body. His outward signs of life were gone, but he wasn't quite dead yet. Then again, what was the Japanese man sensing when he put his hand over Sayid's face and passed it down over his chest? And, did Miles sense that Sayid was or was not dead?

I'm looking forward to an awesome season

Good points. I re-watched the episode and realized that Miles did sense something. I think he knew that Sayid was still alive...

[Mugen910]

I have a feeling the letter in the guitar box was a list of people, like a manifest, that would help solidify Jacob's intent and Jack, Sayid, Kate, Hugo's purpose there to the Other Others

Thanks again, Bao!! This is the only show that has me thinking hours later. Looking forward to a great final season.

[ucla695]

Originally Posted by Goldie

I hate this show, but I love it at the same time. Drives me crazy every time I watch it.

I just hope that all the questions are finally answered about the island, and pretty much the entire show in general. None of this, Sopranos ending sh*t.

Read this.

[TheBeard]

I woke up this morning with a thought:

Before Richard took young Ben Linus to the Temple to heal him, he warned that healing him would remove his memory (at least some of it) and he would be forever "one of them." I've been curious as to what this "one of them" is all about, but I just happened to think: How much has Sayid's memory been affected? I look forward to seeing in tonight's episode (which I will get to watch tomorrow) what the heck is going on with Sayid.

Perhaps this is what Ben has meant all along when he said that he was "born on the island."

[TheBeard]

I also had a thought strike me last night:

From what we've been shown of the Temple previously (that is to say, the area underneath the outer walls that surround the Temple), we've been lead to believe that the Temple is either where the smoke monster lives or is under the protection of the smoke monster, or something along those lines. Yet when the Others inside the Temple found out about Jacob's death, they immediately went into "lockdown mode" and made a point to draw a barrier of ash about their Temple's inner walls.

We saw the same ring of ash encircling Jacob's cabin, and every time we saw this ash we were also shown a gap in the ash. Ilana and her crew pointed out that this meant that Jacob had not been in that cabin for some time (which, now makes me wonder if it's been the smoke monster who's been leading everyone on the island along, especially Locke, with visions of dead people). The reason for this ash was shown to us when the smoke monster attacked Brahm and the others: Apparently, Smokey can't cross that barrier.

Now, my question: If Smokey had been so near the Temple for so long, why wasn't there an ashen barrier in place to begin with? What was keeping him out of the Temple? What power does (did) Jacob have to keep Smokey at bay? If Jacob's cabin needed to be protected by ash, was his room "in the shadow of the statue" any different?

[MikeyC]

Originally Posted by TheBeard

Now, my question: If Smokey had been so near the Temple for so long, why wasn't there an ashen barrier in place to begin with? What was keeping him out of the Temple? What power does (did) Jacob have to keep Smokey at bay? If Jacob's cabin needed to be protected by ash, was his room "in the shadow of the statue" any different?

I think it's quite clear after last week's episode that John Locke (or at least current living Locke) is also the smoke monster. Smokey/Locke is also the same guy that's sitting on the beach with Jacob in last season's finale watching Black Rock find the island.

Apparently, there are "rules" involved in the interaction between Jacob and Smokey/Locke/man in black. At least that's what they say in one recent episode. One of these rules is that Smokey/Locke/MIB cannot kill Jacob which is why he had to get Ben to kill him. So, I guess Jacob never really needed any protection from Smokey.

[Skywalker]

I'm all caught up now!!!

[JE3146]

Sucks with this whole living apart from my wife thing while she's working up North. She leaves on Tuesday nights so I have to wait until the weekend to watch Lost with her

[woops]

Originally Posted by TheBeard

We saw the same ring of ash encircling Jacob's cabin, and every time we saw this ash we were also shown a gap in the ash. Ilana and her crew pointed out that this meant that Jacob had not been in that cabin for some time (which, now makes me wonder if it's been the smoke monster who's been leading everyone on the island along, especially Locke, with visions of dead people). The reason for this ash was shown to us when the smoke monster attacked Brahm and the others: Apparently, Smokey can't cross that barrier.
Now, my question: If Smokey had been so near the Temple for so long, why wasn't there an ashen barrier in place to begin with? What was keeping him out of the Temple? What power does (did) Jacob have to keep Smokey at bay? If Jacob's cabin needed to be protected by ash, was his room "in the shadow of the statue" any different?

I've thought for some time that "Smokey" may have been trapped inside of Jacob's cabin, BY THE ASH. Perhaps he was confined to the cabin. ???

[TheBeard]

Originally Posted by MikeyC

I think it's quite clear after last week's episode that John Locke (or at least current living Locke) is also the smoke monster. Smokey/Locke is also the same guy that's sitting on the beach with Jacob in last season's finale watching Black Rock find the island.

That was never in question. But my references and questions stem from the time in the show when we only knew him as the smoke monster.

Originally Posted by MikeyC

Apparently, there are "rules" involved in the interaction between Jacob and Smokey/Locke/man in black. At least that's what they say in one recent episode. One of these rules is that Smokey/Locke/MIB cannot kill Jacob which is why he had to get Ben to kill him. So, I guess Jacob never really needed any protection from Smokey.

This is true; there are some interesting rules governing the interaction of Jacob and Smokey. Although Jacob (apparently) cannot be killed by Smokey, Jacob's cabin still needed to be protected by a ring of ash. We also know that Jacob's cabin (apparently) isn't always visible and isn't always in the same place, so perhaps that was an added security measure. Even so, what was protecting Jacob's shelter under Taweret, and what was protecting the Temple when they did not ring the inner walls with ash? This was not explained, so I think it's something more than simple "rules" about "killing Jacob." Remember that Smokey (as Locke) had to be taken to Jacob by Richard; he did not know where Jacob was and could not find Jacob on his own.

[TheBeard]

Originally Posted by woops

I've thought for some time that "Smokey" may have been trapped inside of Jacob's cabin, BY THE ASH. Perhaps he was confined to the cabin. ???

I actually thought, for some time, that Jacob was malevolent and was trapped in the cabin by the ash. It seems that things are the other way around. Then again, we're being told that Smokey is evil by the followers of Jacob. "No man is evil in his own mind"-type of scenario.

And now that I think about it, we've heard Ben (and maybe others?) refer to Smokey as a defense system designed to protect the Temple. I wonder what that's about...

[TheBeard]

So, Claire is alive and on the island. This makes a lot of sense, since she seemed to just vanish into thin air. I'm looking forward to an explanation.

What Dogen said about Claire and Sayid in this episode does give a bit more credence to a theory that started forming during last season's finale: When Ilana went to Jacob's cabin and noticed the break in the ashen barrier, she said that Jacob had not been there for quite some time. We saw the same break when Ben took Locke to the cabin in season 3 (The Man Behind The Curtain). If Jacob wasn't in there, who was? Smokey (the smoke monster, the man in black). I think that every dead/missing person that's appeared to our heroes (Christian Shephard multiple times, Claire with Christian saying that she was safe or "home" or something, Walt when Locke had been shot and was in that mass grave, ...) has been Smokey. When Ben went under the Temple walls and fell through the floor and met up with Smokey, we saw that Smokey does have the ability to produce the image of dead persons (Ben's "daughter" told him to follow "Locke").

There are two problems with this theory. 1) Where is Christian Shephard's body? His casket was discovered on the island, but his body was missing. I'd rather there not be a mundane explanation for this. Also, in the "flash sideways" in the season premiere, Oceanic said that his coffin was not on the plane. 2) This theory does not explain Christian's appearance to Jack after Jack left the island.

[TheRiddick]

Does anyone think that Jacob's order to Hurley to take Sayid to the Temple is in some way leading to Jacob being "reincarnated" in Sayid's body? It happened to Locke somehow with Jacob's nemesis, and I am guessing that Jacob will use same trick now to get back at the Man in Black.

[TheBeard]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Does anyone think that Jacob's order to Hurley to take Sayid to the Temple is in some way leading to Jacob being "reincarnated" in Sayid's body? It happened to Locke somehow with Jacob's nemesis, and I am guessing that Jacob will use same trick now to get back at the Man in Black.

Well, it appears that Locke is very dead (on the island) and that the nemesis is simply taking the form of Locke in order to use his pull and gain Richard's trust (obedience?) in order to get an audience with Jacob.

I don't think that Jacob has set up Sayid to be his new body; I had entertained that thought prior to this most recent episode, but what Dogen said about Sayid being "claimed" makes me think otherwise. I do, however, think that Sayid is being set up to be some sort of savior for the island, and he may well end up being an envoy of Jacob's return.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by TheBeard

Well, it appears that Locke is very dead (on the island) and that the nemesis is simply taking the form of Locke in order to use his pull and gain Richard's trust (obedience?) in order to get an audience with Jacob.

I don't think that Jacob has set up Sayid to be his new body; I had entertained that thought prior to this most recent episode, but what Dogen said about Sayid being "claimed" makes me think otherwise. I do, however, think that Sayid is being set up to be some sort of savior for the island, and he may well end up being an envoy of Jacob's return.

Well, claimed could mean a number of things, another person taking over th body is one of them, IMO. Also, Sayid has the military training that may be required to confront the "new" Locke.

[MikeyC]

Originally Posted by TheBeard

Remember that Smokey (as Locke) had to be taken to Jacob by Richard; he did not know where Jacob was and could not find Jacob on his own.

I don't think finding Jacob was a problem for smokey. I think he was just trying to maintain the illusion that he was Locke by pretending not to know where Jacob was. He had to keep everyone convinced he was Locke so that no one would warn Jacob and so that Ben could be convinced to kill Jacob.

[Mugen910]

Missed this from last week: In the airport Sun is called Ms. Paik, rather than Mrs. Kwan, by the security guards and Jin doesn't appear to have a wedding band on.
******
Final Season Episode 2


1. Sayid's torture:

* What if the pill was just a test for Jack to see if he would do the right thing for his friends and not put Sayid in harms way again? After all, Dogen said "here is your chance to redeem yourself." (I don't actually believe this as I think Dogen is just playing on Jack's guilt, that his actions continue to get people hurt, to get Sayid to take the pill, but thought it was an interesting theory)
* The ash test? To see if Smokey has taken over Sayid? What about the electricity (or was it sonic like the Otherville fence?) and hot poker?
* Think about how Sayid cried/ moaned/ pleaded while he was tortured. The old torturer-Sayid would have maintained composure (like when Rousseau tortured him). This is not our beloved Sayid.
* Sayid's only frame of reference for his experience with Dogen was one he knew from his past: torture. He told Dogen that he had no information to share, nothing that he was hiding. Was that the ''tell'' Dogen was looking for? Remember last season, when Richard indicated that one of the side effects of the healing water at the Temple was forgetfulness. Maybe Sayid remembers too much; maybe if the spring had worked, he wouldn't have processed his experience through the lens of his old, damned life. Regardless: Sayid said "failed."
* Sawyer's comment about Sayid being allowed a second chance, insinuating that Juliet wasn't allowed one but would have been more deserving of it... maybe the Island was done with Juliet, she reconciled her past and was allowed to move on, but maybe Sayid has more to do, like Michael. Michael couldn't die until the island was done with him.


2. The flash-sideways:

* Some events seem fated to happen whether on the island or in this alternate reality:

• o Ethan Rom/Goodspeed being involved with Claire pregnancy and the birth of Aaron ("I don't want to stick you with needles if I don't have to." Yeah, we've heard THAT before! Literally.)
• Kate being there/helping to deliver Aaron.
• Aaron being cared for by Claire, not given away.
• Kate becoming friends with Claire.

* Kate looks out the taxi window and sees Jack. They share a lengthy glance that tells us she clearly remembers him from more than just their run-in in the airplane bathroom.
* The mother who was supposed to adopt Aaron (Lindsey Baskum) was similar to pre-island Claire. Same back story! (Or at least the Island-Claire back story.) FLASHBACK to season 1 episode ''Raised By Another.'' Claire got pregnant and was initially wary of being a young mom, but Boyfriend Thomas was all ''We can do this!'', which got Claire all psyched to have the baby. Then Boyfriend Thomas got cold feet and dumped her, and Claire decided to give the baby up for adoption.
* Kate gave the alias Joan Hart when checking Claire in to the hospital. FLASHBACK to season 1 episode ''Born To Run,'' in which Kate - sporting dyed blonde hair - used the Joan Hart alias to check into a motel, then sneak into a hospital to visit her dying mother. This was also the episode where Kate and her childhood friend dug up the time capsule (inside: toy airplane, baseball), as well as the episode where Kate and Sun conspired to poison Jin so that he wouldn't leave the Island on the raft. We saw all those beats mirrored and referenced in last night's episode (hospital visit, poisoning, baseball, Sawyer's time capsule/ box).
* The stuffed whale in Claire's luggage. In the original island time line... it was Kate who gave Aaron that killer whale in season 4 episode ''Something Nice Back Home."

3. Infected/ darkness:

* If Claire (Jack's half-sister) is "infected" with the "darkness" and now looks Rousseau-ish, does this mean it's possible it was Rousseau who was infected, and not her team?
* Remember Season 4 finale when the mercenaries blew up some Dharmaville houses, Claire luckily survives such an explosion and a few minutes later meets Miles. Claire says something like "Wow, we're lucky to be alive!" and Miles answers something like: "I wouldn't be too sure." Maybe Claire was already dead and taken over by the sickness (as Miles seemed to notice there something was different with her or at the very least he looked at her suspiciously).
* When Ben and the Others used a poison gas attack on the Dharma compound during The Purge, perhaps they were actually preventing the "darkness" from spreading to the rest of the island, as the "darkness" had already claimed the Dharma encampment???
o Also, Daniel and Charlotte prevented a large amount of poison gas from being released by Ben at The Tempest. Perhaps Ben had anticipated that the "darkness" had already spread to some of the inhabitants?
* How did Sayid catch the sickness? We've known his whereabouts almost the entire time he's been back on the island, and he never encountered the Smoke Monster. I guess going into the Spring/ healing pool could have something to do with it (on account of the water being murky), but Dogen and a couple Others went in there, too, and I'm assuming they're not sick.

[Mugen910]

4. The Others:

* The Other who accompanied Kate is Aldo, guard from Room 23 (where Karl was brainwashed). Apparently he's been holding a grudge against Kate for knocking him unconscious three years ago.
* Deciphering the Others' hierarchy has been a goal of Lost fans ever since Benry Gale claimed that bearded Tom was not the leader. That was four seasons ago. One would think we'd stop running into people claiming to be in charge of the Others by now.
Tom, Ms. Klugh and Isabel were possibilities a long time ago. Stronger contenders included Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking, Benjamin Linus and John Locke, who have all claimed to be the leader. And when finally it's looking like the guy with the real authority has been Richard Alpert (on Jacob's behalf) all along, Dogen appears. We need to see an Other org chart.
* Dogen's techniques were reminiscent of the scene at the Hydra Station (season 3), when Ben and Juliet tried to break Jack down and ''change his perspective'' in order to get him to save Ben's life by removing that tumor on his spine. The Others would like you to think they believe in free will (see: Lennon praising Jack this week for voluntarily coming to them), but it's a rigged game; they have no problem with telling half-truths, outright lies, or just plain nothing to get you to do what they want you to do. Which is interesting. The Others manipulate our Losties but make them think everything is their own idea. How can Jacob profess the benefits of free will if he and his group of Others have been guiding/ nudging/ guilting the Losties into doing things all along!? Technically, that's not free will.
* Notice how Aldo won't let Justin tell Jin about the Ajira flight. The Others seem to be prohibited from sharing info with the Losties because doing so might tamper with them in some way - as if it's absolutely necessary that the castaways either discover stuff on their own, or are denied info that they don't need to know, or don't need to know yet.
* Justin's cryptic last words to Aldo regarding Jin also seemed important: "He might be one of them." We already know Jin is on Jacob's list, and both Aldo and Justin should know it too. So what else does "one of them" mean? Is there an ultimate purpose these people need to stay alive in order to accomplish? Seems like it. Might be nice if someone shared that with them, though.
* Think back to season two, where Ms. Klugh was asking Michael to lure four of his friends to The Others' encampment. "Why don't you just get them yourselves?" Michael had asked her, to which Klugh replied "It doesn't work that way, Michael". The Others could've taken these people by force any time that they wanted, but for some reason they didn't. They even had three out of four of them at gunpoint, on the day Tom/ Mr. Friendly drew a line in the sand. Yet somehow, for some reason, they needed these people to come on their own. Just like Jack did this week.
* Now think back to season three, where Ben was trying to convince Jack to do his spinal surgery. "You want me to save your life?" Jack had asked him incredulously. "No", Ben responded. "I want you to want to save my life."
* A good theory! "Not only do the temple-dwellers need Sayid to effectively kill himself, but they need Jack to act as the accomplice. You could argue that Dogen used Jack because Sayid inherently trusts him, but that's not the sole reason. Jack, and Jack alone, must be the person who gets Sayid to take the poison. And the reason for this is simple: Jack must clean up his own mess.

Go back to last episode. Right before they dipped Sayid in the spring, Dogen says "Who did this to him?" Jack steps up and claims responsibility. "My fault. I didn't shoot him, but it's my fault." This seemed pretty out of place back then, but Dogen puts the same question to Jack right now. He asks again how Sayid got shot, and Jack tells him what happened. "So, he was helping you?", Dogen asks, very specifically. "Yes", Jack says again. And from here, two things become brutally obvious.

First, Jack has to be the one to give Sayid the pill. It can't be Hurley, it can't be Miles... because Jack was the person directly responsible, he must also be the one to clean up his own mess. This very line is used more than once in past seasons, and we've already seen the theory in action:

During season three, Ben tried to make Locke kill Anthony Cooper. He even made it seem as if it were some strange test he had to pass. The truth of the matter however, is that Ben couldn't kill Cooper for a much different reason: Ben wasn't the person who brought the man from Tallahassee to the island in the first place. He thought it was Locke, and therefore needed Locke to commit the murder. But Ben turned out to be wrong here, because it was actually Sawyer who had brought Cooper to the island - a manifestation of his intense desire to find the man responsible for the death of his parents. Even Locke realized this, when he somehow couldn't even bring himself to kill the man who had caused his paralysis. Instead, Locke lured Sawyer to the Black Rock, where he strangled Cooper."

5. Otherville:

* Sawyer in Otherville continuing to mourn Juliet. He even digs an engagement ring out the floorboards of his old house and, like Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes", he chucks it into the ocean. I loved Kate's disappointment. It's like she always thought that Juliet was Sawyer's consolation prize for losing Kate, but Sawyer really loved Juilet and has no romantic feelings for Kate at all at this point. Hahahahaha! She followed him thinking they were going to be a team but he seems to want nothing to do with her. Again, hahahahahaha!

6. Although, for me it was a boring-ish episode one blogger had an interesting perspective: It was an episode about people trying to ditch burdensome, painful baggage (like Kate and her shackles, heartbroken Sawyer and his ring) - or learning to embrace it (like Claire and her baby; like Jack and his failures/ accountability).


7. A fun theory from the web:

"Opening scene of last year's finale:

MIB: It always ends the same. They come, they fight, they kill, they destroy. It always ends the same.

Jacob: Yes but it only ends once. Anything before that is progress.

Here's the thought: The alternate reality is just one itteration of many alts and Jacob and Smokey can experience all of them. Jacob has the ability to leave the island and choose which alt universe or dimension he enters. Each one ends the same. No matter what he does to try to bring people to the island to save humanity it always ends up failing. But every time there is progress.

THE ALT OF SEASON SIX IS THE FINAL PROGRESSION WHERIN THEY SUCCEED IN SAVING HUMANITY.

This also means that the version in which we are currently on island is one of the failures so all of those people in that reality are doomed to fail and humanity will be destroyed. But this brings a whole new meaning to "it worked".

In each dimension the incident is what creates the alt reality. The entire first five seasons are us seeing the itteration before the final itteration. The one that finally made success possible.

"IT WORKED" MEANS THEY ALL FINALLY GOT THEIR DESTINY RIGHT.

Rewatching LA X and when Rose says to Jack "It's ok. You can let go now." You could take that as, "You can give in to youre destiny. We got it right this time."

Jacob believed they were making progress. Meaning there was eventually something he was trying to get right. He did, but he didn't understand what was happening until after he died. He had to die and the island had to not exist at all during these people's lifetimes for them to get their destiny right. The final solution to Jacob's ultimate goal was to take himself and the island out of play."