The Wine Thread - Page 13

05-14-2009, 10:34 PM

I'll have to do a SB trip sometime. Did Paso Robles and Napa last year with a couple of little trips to other places too.

TheRiddick · 05-14-2009, 11:33 PM

Wow, spend a day away from the web and what do you see?

One thing at a time.

Lance,

I hate to say it, but if your "standard" for Pinot is David Bruce, I really need you to try a TON of REALLY GOOD Pinot, David Bruce is average at best, IMO.

Cab has never gone away, I think it will be the last grape to do so. Still popular and still pretty much a standard bearer for the most part since only a small percentage of consumers drink Pinot. Same as for David Bruce and Pinot, I'd say one can also state that Burrell School and Cab are not a combo wine geeks ever think about in the same sentence. Cab and Pride, Cab and Schrader, Cab and Maybach, Cab and a ton of other great producers in Napa proper (Paradigm, Etude, Whitehall Lane, etc, etc, etc).

Looks like I need to introduce you to some Pinot and Cab :-)
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David (MrReinder),

You are the first person I have ever seen refer to Petite Sirah as light. As a matter of fact it is pretty much bigger than any other varietal out there, makes Cabs look like mid bodied wine. When done right, PS is pitch black in the glass with no light coming through and it is pretty dense to boot.

Come to think of it, Syrah is next biggest if done that way. Bigger than Cab. Can and should be almost black in color. Have you tried Syrah from Carlisle, Siduri, Sine Qua Non, Alban? They will change your mind and most likely spoil you forever.
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Sideways, the movie.

Funny how consumers treat the movie as something special, Pinot wine makers hated it and still do for a number of reasons.

But the key point of the entire script/movie and a very BIG PUNCHLINE to underscore how stupid this "I hate f**ing Merlot" thing was went absolutely unnoticed by what, 99% of the viewers? After all that 2 hour anti-Merlot theme that Miles lives by, what is his most prized possession? Yep. A bottle of Cheval Blanc, a nice wine in its own right. But wait, how many people know that it is roughly one half MERLOT? An $1200+ bottle consumed alone, out of a paper cup with a Big Mac in tow.
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Moses,

Pinot when done right will be difficult to ID, been there done that. Burgundy lately is at pretty similar level of ripeness and extraction as is done here in CA. My tasting group did a tasting of the much ballyhooed 2005 vintage, about 6 weeks ago, some good names and regions/vineyards and yet, I would not spend a penny on any of the wines (we had about a dozen). I snuck in one of my own wines as a ringer, made from Monterey fruit that was barely ripe when picked, acidic and all, and this wine tasted super ripe in its flight (all double blind, of course). Burgs drank like acid extractions with no fruit, no flavor (unless one considers acidity a flavor and maybe some one dimensional cherry note) and too much oak, that is too much oak for the little fruit the wines had. Some had brett, not a surprise, of course.

I know you will tell me that the best stuff is expensive, and I also said that before, but until that day when I can afford to spend a $2000+ on a bottle of Pinot, some of the best CA Pinot in the $50-60 per bottle range will do just fine. Its an age old and tired by now argument, but all I can say is that outside of CA, and even here, most people really do not get to taste the best CA produces since the wines are made in small batches and go either to direct to mailing list or some key accounts.

Have you had any Rivers-Marie? Marcassin? August West? Sandler? Sea Smoke? Roessler? Older Dehlinger and Rochioli? All in the $30-80 range.

05-14-2009, 11:47 PM

Greg, I mentioned that I like my local wineries because I get to know the winemakers and the harvest, etc. I get to buy some of the "one barrel was really great" type of wines from them. I don't have to mess around tasting strange things to find the good ones as often. David Bruce no longer runs his winery and I believe it has gone downhill since Ken Foster left. But he was the one who made the CA wine that beat the Burgundy in the 70s and again more recently. Santa Clara Valley has always produced great cabs. It used to be HUGE production. It seems like demand or mass popularity has decreased. These things seem to go in waves.

Man, that too much oak you talk about! Is it the barrel wood? I noticed it in a lot of different wines from a lot of different regions lately.

TheRiddick · 05-15-2009, 01:28 AM

Yep, barrel oak :-) Basically, one way to get higher Parker and Laube scores. Many play that game, some refuse to (I do). Oak flavor and tannins are fine up to a point, but cross that line and all you get is vanilla milk shake flavor and drying tannins that bury the fruit. Show me a winery that proudly proclaims they use 100% new oak and I will show you a wine I do not like. Balance is key and lately I buy wines that are made same way I prefer making mine, oak program is carefully dialed in and only determined right at the time before we press (after figuring out just how much oak the fruit can handle, based on vintage conditions, fruit flavors as ferments finish and how much (max) tannin I want in finished wine). Different coopers and forests are used for each vineyard, some barrels play nice with vineard A and completely wreak havoc on vineyard B, so it takes some time to figure out what works. Many buy barrels on "name recognition" never spending time to really analyze if they actually work for the fruit sources. Its an ever evolving process of you want it done right, wine barrels is whole new ballgame and science.

I hear you on David Bruce, my comment was on his recent vintages. About 4 years ago a number of us congregated for a weekend soire at Pisoni Estate, toured the 3 vineyards and drank a lot. Brian Loring brought a case of Pinots he bought the day before, one bottle in particular blew all of us away. Yep, David Bruce, made from an up and coming (then) vineyard right below Garys' Vineyard, simply amazing stuff. Too bad they could not reproduce it again. I also tasted through David Bruce Petites about 3 years ago, but even though I could tell the fruit was great, the wines were "killed" IMO by the use of too much new oak, American to boot, which simply did not play nice with the fruit. But that's a real travesty with most of Petite producers, Petite by definition, has plenty of tannic structure via small berry/thick skin ratio and forcing yet another layer of tannin and oak flavors only muddles the whole deal. If you look at the best made CA Petites, all of them are made with neutral oak: Pride (no longer made), Switchback Ridge, Corte Riva, Outpost, Robert Foley. I'll add mine to the list since I learned from these guys. This is the premier Petite shelf, bar none. Once you move away from that, you start seeing new oak in spades and in a blind tasting the difference is profound.

03-25-2010, 12:33 PM

I have been looking to get a few nice bottles of wine, trying to expand a little bit, and have been shopping around for quality and also value.
Got a question for the Champagne people. Taittinger seems to be a value play, considering the Brut Millesime 1990 vintage is around $100. How is there stuff? Would it be better to get a younger vintage from Pol Roger, Krug, DP, Salon, Delamotte ect..

PeteSB75 · 03-25-2010, 02:26 PM

Funny, was just reading through this thread and said to myself, I used to really like David Bruce, had some of his Pinot about 12-14 years ago and it was very good. Tried a bottle about a year ago and it was middling at best and certainly not worth what I paid. I thought it was my tastes changing. Good to know that the winemaker is different and it's not all in my head.

I've become a firm believer in wine club mailing lists. When I go tasting somewhere - Long Island and Lodi last two times I went, I try to get on the list of the vineyard whose wines I enjoy the most. Great stuff there, and a substantial amount of it not available to the general public, especially if you get into the smaller wineries, or those who only produce in smaller batches.

mosesbotbol · 03-25-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

Got a question for the Champagne people. Taittinger seems to be a value play, considering the Brut Millesime 1990 vintage is around $100. How is there stuff? Would it be better to get a younger vintage from Pol Roger, Krug, DP, Salon, Delamotte ect..

The Taittnger Comte de Champagne is one my favorite Champagnes bar none and I have had plenty of heavy hitters. Taittenger has a lemon curd flavor that is just sublime. I can't talk enough about it. I'd imagine the 1990 is Brute Millesime is a home run for $100. I am not a huge Dom Perignon fan unless it's old; try the Oenotheque bottles if you can find for good price. It's a little sweet for me, Cristal- expensive but awesome, bottles can vary from each vintage, the best have a pronounced Parmaesan Cheese taste that is really intense. I really love Philliponant. Their Royal Reserve was voted best Champagne we had a cigar/Champagne tasting that may be on this forum or ICC. Everyone loved it among like 10 good Champagnes and is around $50.00. That would be my pick for under $100.

Champagne is personal. Some like old wine with an old dose. Old wine with new dose. New wine with new dose... I am not an expert hardly on Champagne, just fortunate that a friend of mine is a national expert and sold more top end bottles of Champagne than just about anyone in USA for the last few years.

03-25-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

The Taittnger Comte de Champagne is one my favorite Champagnes bar none and I have had plenty of heavy hitters. Taittenger has a lemon curd flavor that is just sublime. I can't talk enough about it. I'd imagine the 1990 is Brute Millesime is a home run for $100. I am not a huge Dom Perignon fan unless it's old. It's a little sweet for me, Cristal- expensive but awesome, bottles can vary from each vintage, the best have a pronounced Parmaesan Cheese taste that is really intense. I really love Philliponant. Their Royal Reserve was voted best Champagne we had a cigar/Champagne tasting that may be on this forum or ICC. Everyone loved it among like 10 good Champagnes and is around $50.00. That would be my pick for under $100.

Very nice! I will also take a look at Philliponat.

03-25-2010, 03:14 PM

Most places have Philipponnat Royale Reserve for $30

01-10-2011, 10:57 PM

My wine pallet is getting bi-polar. If it's good or very good it goes on the good side. If it's not it goes on the bad side. I buy one and not the other and don't care much any more except to notice when one really stands out. But wine is always changing, even the same wine. Worse than cigars. I just give up. That said, I'm always buying some. Tasted some in Cambria from a Paso Robles winery near there call Black Hand that was good and bought some. Can't remember the grape. I have about 300 bottles at any one time and can never remember the story behind them all.

01-10-2011, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC-Axeman

My wine pallet is getting bi-polar. If it's good or very good it goes on the good side. If it's not it goes on the bad side. I buy one and not the other and don't care much any more except to notice when one really stands out. But wine is always changing, even the same wine. Worse than cigars. I just give up. That said, I'm always buying some. Tasted some in Cambria from a Paso Robles winery near there call Black Hand that was good and bought some. Can't remember the grape. I have about 300 bottles at any one time and can never remember the story behind them all.

Have you had anything from Priorat recently? That's another area I'm looking at getting into.

TheRiddick · 01-11-2011, 12:39 AM

If you like Priorat, which is pretty much Grenache grape, you should try some Grenache based offerings from CA and Australia. Grenache is as expressive as Pinot Noir and Barolo.

01-11-2011, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

If you like Priorat, which is pretty much Grenache grape, you should try some Grenache based offerings from CA and Australia. Grenache is as expressive as Pinot Noir and Barolo.

Can you recommend any producers?

mosesbotbol · 01-12-2011, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

Can you recommend any producers?

Anything made in France that has a decent review.

TheRiddick · 01-12-2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

Anything made in France that has a decent review.

Priorat is in Spain.

mosesbotbol · 01-12-2011, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Priorat is in Spain.

There's plenty of Grenache in France; Languedoc-Roussillon, Cotes du Rhone and Gigondas have plenty of Grenache based wines.

Perhaps something from Beaucastel or St. Cosme he might fancy?

3SmokesaRound · 01-11-2011, 12:54 AM

Just seeing this thread for the first time. Don't have time to read through everything right now, but looking forward to checking it out. I love wine, and have for a couple years now, but really know nothing about it (other than I like to drink it) Pinot, Cabs and Petite Syrahs are usually my go to wines

maverickdrinker · 01-11-2011, 11:43 PM

been on a champagne kick lately

2000 dom perignon
1996 bollinger RD
bollinger NV
nicolas feuallatte NV
lanson rose
piper hiedsieck rose sauvage

01-13-2011, 03:31 PM

Several good cheap brands are Barefoot and Yellow Tail. Usually about $6-7 bucks a bottle. They have Merlot, Cabs , Sauv, Moscatos and several others. Worth a try!

01-13-2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpd340

Several good cheap brands are Barefoot and Yellow Tail. Usually about $6-7 bucks a bottle. They have Merlot, Cabs , Sauv, Moscatos and several others. Worth a try!

Spend $5-6 more and you can find some good stuff. Yellow Tail to me is like the BudMillerCoors of the beer world. There's no "terroir" with Yellow Tail. I know many people like it, and if that's what tastes good to them, that's no problem with me.

05-14-2009, 10:34 PM	#1
BC-Axeman Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Wine Thread I'll have to do a SB trip sometime. Did Paso Robles and Napa last year with a couple of little trips to other places too.

05-14-2009, 11:33 PM	#2
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Wine Thread Wow, spend a day away from the web and what do you see? One thing at a time. Lance, I hate to say it, but if your "standard" for Pinot is David Bruce, I really need you to try a TON of REALLY GOOD Pinot, David Bruce is average at best, IMO. Cab has never gone away, I think it will be the last grape to do so. Still popular and still pretty much a standard bearer for the most part since only a small percentage of consumers drink Pinot. Same as for David Bruce and Pinot, I'd say one can also state that Burrell School and Cab are not a combo wine geeks ever think about in the same sentence. Cab and Pride, Cab and Schrader, Cab and Maybach, Cab and a ton of other great producers in Napa proper (Paradigm, Etude, Whitehall Lane, etc, etc, etc). Looks like I need to introduce you to some Pinot and Cab :-) . . . . David (MrReinder), You are the first person I have ever seen refer to Petite Sirah as light. As a matter of fact it is pretty much bigger than any other varietal out there, makes Cabs look like mid bodied wine. When done right, PS is pitch black in the glass with no light coming through and it is pretty dense to boot. Come to think of it, Syrah is next biggest if done that way. Bigger than Cab. Can and should be almost black in color. Have you tried Syrah from Carlisle, Siduri, Sine Qua Non, Alban? They will change your mind and most likely spoil you forever. . . . . . Sideways, the movie. Funny how consumers treat the movie as something special, Pinot wine makers hated it and still do for a number of reasons. But the key point of the entire script/movie and a very BIG PUNCHLINE to underscore how stupid this "I hate f**ing Merlot" thing was went absolutely unnoticed by what, 99% of the viewers? After all that 2 hour anti-Merlot theme that Miles lives by, what is his most prized possession? Yep. A bottle of Cheval Blanc, a nice wine in its own right. But wait, how many people know that it is roughly one half MERLOT? An $1200+ bottle consumed alone, out of a paper cup with a Big Mac in tow. . . . . . Moses, Pinot when done right will be difficult to ID, been there done that. Burgundy lately is at pretty similar level of ripeness and extraction as is done here in CA. My tasting group did a tasting of the much ballyhooed 2005 vintage, about 6 weeks ago, some good names and regions/vineyards and yet, I would not spend a penny on any of the wines (we had about a dozen). I snuck in one of my own wines as a ringer, made from Monterey fruit that was barely ripe when picked, acidic and all, and this wine tasted super ripe in its flight (all double blind, of course). Burgs drank like acid extractions with no fruit, no flavor (unless one considers acidity a flavor and maybe some one dimensional cherry note) and too much oak, that is too much oak for the little fruit the wines had. Some had brett, not a surprise, of course. I know you will tell me that the best stuff is expensive, and I also said that before, but until that day when I can afford to spend a $2000+ on a bottle of Pinot, some of the best CA Pinot in the $50-60 per bottle range will do just fine. Its an age old and tired by now argument, but all I can say is that outside of CA, and even here, most people really do not get to taste the best CA produces since the wines are made in small batches and go either to direct to mailing list or some key accounts. Have you had any Rivers-Marie? Marcassin? August West? Sandler? Sea Smoke? Roessler? Older Dehlinger and Rochioli? All in the $30-80 range.

05-14-2009, 11:47 PM	#3
BC-Axeman Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Wine Thread Greg, I mentioned that I like my local wineries because I get to know the winemakers and the harvest, etc. I get to buy some of the "one barrel was really great" type of wines from them. I don't have to mess around tasting strange things to find the good ones as often. David Bruce no longer runs his winery and I believe it has gone downhill since Ken Foster left. But he was the one who made the CA wine that beat the Burgundy in the 70s and again more recently. Santa Clara Valley has always produced great cabs. It used to be HUGE production. It seems like demand or mass popularity has decreased. These things seem to go in waves. Man, that too much oak you talk about! Is it the barrel wood? I noticed it in a lot of different wines from a lot of different regions lately.

05-15-2009, 01:28 AM	#4
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Wine Thread Yep, barrel oak :-) Basically, one way to get higher Parker and Laube scores. Many play that game, some refuse to (I do). Oak flavor and tannins are fine up to a point, but cross that line and all you get is vanilla milk shake flavor and drying tannins that bury the fruit. Show me a winery that proudly proclaims they use 100% new oak and I will show you a wine I do not like. Balance is key and lately I buy wines that are made same way I prefer making mine, oak program is carefully dialed in and only determined right at the time before we press (after figuring out just how much oak the fruit can handle, based on vintage conditions, fruit flavors as ferments finish and how much (max) tannin I want in finished wine). Different coopers and forests are used for each vineyard, some barrels play nice with vineard A and completely wreak havoc on vineyard B, so it takes some time to figure out what works. Many buy barrels on "name recognition" never spending time to really analyze if they actually work for the fruit sources. Its an ever evolving process of you want it done right, wine barrels is whole new ballgame and science. I hear you on David Bruce, my comment was on his recent vintages. About 4 years ago a number of us congregated for a weekend soire at Pisoni Estate, toured the 3 vineyards and drank a lot. Brian Loring brought a case of Pinots he bought the day before, one bottle in particular blew all of us away. Yep, David Bruce, made from an up and coming (then) vineyard right below Garys' Vineyard, simply amazing stuff. Too bad they could not reproduce it again. I also tasted through David Bruce Petites about 3 years ago, but even though I could tell the fruit was great, the wines were "killed" IMO by the use of too much new oak, American to boot, which simply did not play nice with the fruit. But that's a real travesty with most of Petite producers, Petite by definition, has plenty of tannic structure via small berry/thick skin ratio and forcing yet another layer of tannin and oak flavors only muddles the whole deal. If you look at the best made CA Petites, all of them are made with neutral oak: Pride (no longer made), Switchback Ridge, Corte Riva, Outpost, Robert Foley. I'll add mine to the list since I learned from these guys. This is the premier Petite shelf, bar none. Once you move away from that, you start seeing new oak in spades and in a blind tasting the difference is profound.

03-25-2010, 12:33 PM	#5
ChicagoWhiteSox Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Wine Thread I have been looking to get a few nice bottles of wine, trying to expand a little bit, and have been shopping around for quality and also value. Got a question for the Champagne people. Taittinger seems to be a value play, considering the Brut Millesime 1990 vintage is around $100. How is there stuff? Would it be better to get a younger vintage from Pol Roger, Krug, DP, Salon, Delamotte ect..

03-25-2010, 02:26 PM	#6
PeteSB75 Have My Own Room Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Pete Location: CT Posts: 1,674 Trading: (18)	Re: The Wine Thread Funny, was just reading through this thread and said to myself, I used to really like David Bruce, had some of his Pinot about 12-14 years ago and it was very good. Tried a bottle about a year ago and it was middling at best and certainly not worth what I paid. I thought it was my tastes changing. Good to know that the winemaker is different and it's not all in my head. I've become a firm believer in wine club mailing lists. When I go tasting somewhere - Long Island and Lodi last two times I went, I try to get on the list of the vineyard whose wines I enjoy the most. Great stuff there, and a substantial amount of it not available to the general public, especially if you get into the smaller wineries, or those who only produce in smaller batches. __________________ Formerly Malik23

03-25-2010, 03:14 PM	#9
ChicagoWhiteSox Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Wine Thread Most places have Philipponnat Royale Reserve for $30

01-10-2011, 10:57 PM	#10
BC-Axeman Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Wine Thread My wine pallet is getting bi-polar. If it's good or very good it goes on the good side. If it's not it goes on the bad side. I buy one and not the other and don't care much any more except to notice when one really stands out. But wine is always changing, even the same wine. Worse than cigars. I just give up. That said, I'm always buying some. Tasted some in Cambria from a Paso Robles winery near there call Black Hand that was good and bought some. Can't remember the grape. I have about 300 bottles at any one time and can never remember the story behind them all.

01-11-2011, 12:39 AM	#12
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Wine Thread If you like Priorat, which is pretty much Grenache grape, you should try some Grenache based offerings from CA and Australia. Grenache is as expressive as Pinot Noir and Barolo.

01-11-2011, 12:54 AM	#17
3SmokesaRound CCCC Join Date: Apr 2010 First Name: Bill Location: CA Posts: 685 Trading: (48)	Re: The Wine Thread Just seeing this thread for the first time. Don't have time to read through everything right now, but looking forward to checking it out. I love wine, and have for a couple years now, but really know nothing about it (other than I like to drink it) Pinot, Cabs and Petite Syrahs are usually my go to wines

01-11-2011, 11:43 PM	#18
maverickdrinker I'm nuts for the place Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: art Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 2,590 Trading: (15)	Re: The Wine Thread been on a champagne kick lately 2000 dom perignon 1996 bollinger RD bollinger NV nicolas feuallatte NV lanson rose piper hiedsieck rose sauvage

01-13-2011, 03:31 PM	#19
mpd340 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Wine Thread Several good cheap brands are Barefoot and Yellow Tail. Usually about $6-7 bucks a bottle. They have Merlot, Cabs , Sauv, Moscatos and several others. Worth a try!