James Suckling retires

[akumushi]

Now who will Habanos S.A. pay off to give their newest releases 100 point reviews?
I don't think he'll be missed as much as he'd hope to be. Expert or not, he struck
me and a lot of others as a grade A douchebag. Does he know CCs?
Sure, but there are a lot of BOTL that regularly post on this forum that know just
as much a he does and have half the attitude. After three years of following that
magazine, I'm not planning on renewing my current subsricption because frankly,
I get what I used to seek from that magazine in forums like this, and the two biggest
changes in why it didn't cut it for me anymore anymore was their coverage of CCs and
the abysmal condition of their website/forums. CA would be wise to update its business
model and focus on providing a more attractive online environment as well as getting
a spokesperson that doesn't make a lot of serious smokers roll their eyes. I think it's
a good opportunity for them to put out a new face. Mott and Savona may not have as
much knowledge as Suckling, but their bedside manners are a hell of a lot better

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by akumushi

.. Sure, but there are a lot of BOTL that regularly post on this forum that know just as much a he does and have half the attitude...

If you want to question the content of the magazine, that is fine since it is not Suckling's call, its Shanken's. To question his knowledge of cigars is simply ignorant and poorly educated and your statement that consumers know as much is highly questionable in itself, I dare you to name one consumer who knows as much, I can easily point out a number of "holes" (be it historical perspective or tobacco growing/fermentation/processing) in many a post on this board and others and I am not an expert on cigars by any means and certainly not on a level Suckling is. If you'd want to point out a number of cigar makers who know more than Suckling does, sure, I will be the first one to agree with the premise, but consumers? Not even close.

All I see is personal attacks and I am guessing they are mostly driven by envy of Suckling's great and easy (and more over, PAID for and, thus, FREE) access to the high life many wouldn't mind leading themselves.

Do not confuse and use envy with Suckling' actual knowledge of the subjects he wrote about. I am not a huge fan of his writings, Kramer sometimes comes up with more relevant and thought provoking ideas, but Suckling certainly knows his s**t.

[akumushi]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

If you want to question the content of the magazine, that is fine since it is not Suckling's call, its Shanken's. To question his knowledge of cigars is simply ignorant and poorly educated and your statement that consumers know as much is highly questionable in itself, I dare you to name one consumer who knows as much, I can easily point out a number of "holes" (be it historical perspective or tobacco growing/fermentation/processing) in many a post on this board and others and I am not an expert on cigars by any means and certainly not on a level Suckling is. If you'd want to point out a number of cigar makers who know more than Suckling does, sure, I will be the first one to agree with the premise, but consumers? Not even close.

All I see is personal attacks and I am guessing they are mostly driven by envy of Suckling's great and easy (and more over, PAID for and, thus, FREE) access to the high life many wouldn't mind leading themselves.

Do not confuse and use envy with Suckling' actual knowledge of the subjects he wrote about. I am not a huge fan of his writings, Kramer sometimes comes up with more relevant and thought provoking ideas, but Suckling certainly knows his s**t.

If Suckling does have this excessive knowledge as you say, it hasn't come across particularly strongly in his published work in CA in the time I've been reading it. If he regularly did more overt cigar history and processing content like that I would definitely have a higher opinion of his ouevre. Maybe, as you said, that is the editor's fault and not his own. Maybe he's far more interesting in person than the way he comes off in that publication, but as far as readership is concerned, I won't miss his editorial there, and that's what we were talking about here.

On your point of consumer VS. industry insider, you don't need to have encyclopedic knowledge of cigar history and cigar production to rate, recommend and review Habanos, you need first hand experience of the product; to have smoked a lot of them in a wide variety, and while I won't mention names out of respect, there are a lot of members of this board that have smoked a lot of Habanos, including rare and HTFs, whose opinion I would trust a hell of a lot more than Sucklings. Is that naive? Possibly, but maybe I prefer to listen to people who I've had interactions with that don't come off in a pompous manner rather than just taking Mr. 100 point CGR on his word because he is a so called "expert."

If people don't listen to a guy's views despite his vast and superior knowledge maybe it's because he comes off in a prickish way that's disconnected from the populace. Frankly, I don't seeit as envy on my part because there are plenty of BOTL on this forum smoking a lot more expensive smokes than you see being reviewed on cigar aficionado, with completely enviable stashes, that don't get slammed left and right from the people who make up the base of readership and give guys like Suckling their jobs and fund that lifestyle in the firstplace.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by akumushi

If Suckling does have this excessive knowledge as you say, it hasn't come across particularly strongly in his published work in CA in the time I've been reading it. If he regularly did more overt cigar history and processing content like that I would definitely have a higher opinion of his ouevre. Maybe, as you said, that is the editor's fault and not his own. Maybe he's far more interesting in person than the way he comes off in that publication, but as far as readership is concerned, I won't miss his editorial there, and that's what we were talking about here.

On your point of consumer VS. industry insider, you don't need to have encyclopedic knowledge of cigar history and cigar production to rate, recommend and review Habanos, you need first hand experience of the product; to have smoked a lot of them in a wide variety, and while I won't mention names out of respect, there are a lot of members of this board that have smoked a lot of Habanos, including rare and HTFs, whose opinion I would trust a hell of a lot more than Sucklings. Is that naive? Possibly, but maybe I prefer to listen to people who I've had interactions with that don't come off in a pompous manner rather than just taking Mr. 100 point CGR on his word because he is a so called "expert."

If people don't listen to a guys views despite his vast and superior knowledge maybe it's because he comes off in a prickish way that's disconnected from the populace. Frankly, I don't think it's envy because there are plenty of BOTL on this forum smoking a lot more expensive smokes than you see being reviewed on cigar aficionado.

On the first highlighted point above, I find it way too simplistic. All I can tell you is that you can probably count those on CA who have been smoking Cuban cigars for longer that, say, 10 years, on fingers of what, one hand? Those who have never smoked a good number of older Cuban tobacco (the pre-Habano days and mostly that of Corojo) simply cannot have a proper perspective of what Cuban cigars can (and did) achieve. So, I still stand by my point of view, no consumer on this board is even close to Suckling. I have been smoking cigars for a long time now, my first was in 1977, but would be hard pressed to match Suckling's experience and perspective. I find it strange that those who have been smoking cigars and Cuban cigars in particular, for JUST the past few years (5-8 tops and in most cases way less) all of a sudden are experts on the subject. And I use word "strange" here in as a mild political correctness way as I can...

On the second point above. Please remind me, just how many unique readers are here on this board? And what is the circulation of the Cigar Aficionado (and Wine Spectator)? Compare the numbers and let me know who has more "listeners". Suckling drives the market (whether you believe nor understand this) while your "experts" here and other boards do what exactly?

I always tell people not to simply and automatically believe everything they think, open mind can be an eye opening experience especially when facts are in play.

Funny that it took Spectator just 4 people to replace ONE guy... But then again, he knows nothing according to you.

[Blueface]

I'm devastated.
Considering giving up cigars.

I'm looking one of the CA videos about Limitada/Regionales cigars. He was talking about the Cuaba EL 2008 which he thinks is "tha Bomb"........ well that cigar is really disappointed and not worth the EL label. It wasn't tastefull at all. Very mild comparred with other pieces of the limitadas I smoked. EL and Regionales must be special with some heavy tast.(like the Partagas, Bolivar and MC cigars.) It's not comming back in my humidor for sure..

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by cgarphotogallery

I'm looking one of the CA videos about Limitada/Regionales cigars. He was talking about the Cuaba EL 2008 which he thinks is "tha Bomb"........ well that cigar is really disappointed and not worth the EL label. It wasn't tastefull at all. Very mild comparred with other pieces of the limitadas I smoked. EL and Regionales must be special with some heavy tast.(like the Partagas, Bolivar and MC cigars.) It's not comming back in my humidor for sure..

Just one question. How do you know that the cigar you smoked is the same he did?

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Just one question. How do you know that the cigar you smoked is the same he did?

Cigars do come down the box on hand, and he probably smoked it quite fresh, before it got sick. All of the cigars at the Festival are going to be fantastic representations of the cigar.

There are many things I disagree with Suckling on, most glaringly is his drinking windows for port. His window is quite small and he has had plenty of vintages from the 50’s older to know how long port can age. Suckling is not a critic that makes waves when it comes to rating Habanos, and realistically what he says is good doesn’t make much of a difference. Habanos consumers are loyal to their marcas and vitolas. Collectors and avid consumers like us are just going to buy without regard to any published review. Beyond his actual reviews, he is a good writer and captures the essence of his experience quite well.

One can say MRN is a "bigger expert", and he may well be, but he is not as poetic writer as Suckling. I bet if you asked MRN, he would respect Suckling. He would single out factual errors Suckling has made, but point to the cannon of his work as being collectable and a future reference.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

Cigars do come down the box on hand, and he probably smoked it quite fresh, before it got sick. All of the cigars at the Festival are going to be fantastic representations of the cigar.

There are many things I disagree with Suckling on, most glaringly is his drinking windows for port. His window is quite small and he has had plenty of vintages from the 50’s older to know how long port can age. Suckling is not a critic that makes waves when it comes to rating Habanos, and realistically what he says is good doesn’t make much of a difference. Habanos consumers are loyal to their marcas and vitolas. Collectors and avid consumers like us are just going to buy without regard to any published review. Beyond his actual reviews, he is a good writer and captures the essence of his experience quite well.

One can say MRN is a "bigger expert", and he may well be, but he is not as poetic writer as Suckling. I bet if you asked MRN, he would respect Suckling. He would single out factual errors Suckling has made, but point to the cannon of his work as being collectable and a future reference.

Moses, not to split hairs, and I already pointed out that I was not really a Suckling follower having worked in wine retail and being able to taste as much as I want without relying on reviewers, but this is a theme that runs throughout Spectator reviews and I think it may be their "policy". What they do, and I know this is true for California reviews, their published windows tend to be a "young" side since they are reasonably assuring consumers that within that drinking window the wines will show similar to the reviews. For example, most "experts" out there will tell you that CA Pinot doesn't age, yet almost all well made ones improve with 6-8 years in cellar ("experts" claim they are dead by then). I just did a tasting of '96-98 Pinots a few months back and one would be hard pressed to tell they are older than 2-3 years color and taste wise (still dark and rich and plenty of tannin to go another 5-6 years). Yet these same wines were listed with 2-3 year drinking window by Spectator, per their "policy".

As for cigars, you may be right about Suckling catching that EL just before the "sick period". But I would still place my bet on the provenance knowing this board's buying habits.

You and I may not agree with Suckling reviews and writings, but to belittle his long contribution to both wine and cigar writings is simply amateurish, that's all I am pointing out.

[rizzle]

I just wanted to post in a thread with the words uppity and pompous being thrown around.

Carry on.

[icehog3]

I didn't see where Clayton called people at CA "experts". He said "you don't need to have encyclopedic knowledge of cigar history and cigar production to rate, recommend and review Habanos.". It was you who said that people here were trying to pass themselves off as "experts".

If someone here who normally has similar likes to mine recommends a cigar, why would I not take that as a valid recommendation, even if he had only been smoking exclusively Cuban for 5 years?

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by icehog3

I didn't see where Clayton called people at CA "experts". He said "you don't need to have encyclopedic knowledge of cigar history and cigar production to rate, recommend and review Habanos.". It was you who said that people here were trying to pass themselves off as "experts".

If someone here who normally has similar likes to mine recommends a cigar, why would I not take that as a valid recommendation, even if he had only been smoking exclusively Cuban for 5 years?

We're talking apples and oranges here, don't we. I was pointing out that when it comes to KNOWLEDGE and CIGAR WRITING no one on this board is even close to Suckling's level. Exclusive CC smoking or not, which has nothing to do with the discussion. And please point out to me how someone smoking CCs for just 5 years has any real perspective into Cuban cigars, something I did point out, when recent releases are nowhere near what Cuban cigars used to be (and what turned a good number of us away from Cuban smokes). Occasional older Cuban smoke here and there doesn't make for an "expert", sorry to be blunt. Suckling has a long and proven experience and knows what Cubans were like in times gone by, something that is really not known to 99% or more here.

Clayton stated Suckling is not relevant and is not followed, yet I would still love to hear from him how having hundreds of thousands of readers is not relevant? More relevant than anyone here or elsewhere last time I checked. People actually pay money to read his "irrelevant" opinions. And no, I do not agree with every one of his reviews, nor should I.

Every time I read a TN here about some newish CC described as "strong" or "big" I simply cringe, they are no more than medium, AT BEST, and most are simply way too mild lately. Do you really think people have a real and proper perspective into what Cuban cigars are without having a long and varied tasting history with them? Suckling is among a few who does.

I really don't give a s**t one way or another about Suckling, I do not drink EU wines for the most part lately (used to, though, but not Bords), but it is curious to see Suckling being criticized by relatively new people to cigar (and wine) world.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

We're talking apples and oranges here, don't we. I was pointing out that when it comes to KNOWLEDGE and CIGAR WRITING no one on this board is even close to Suckling's level. Exclusive CC smoking or not, which has nothing to do with the discussion. And please point out to me how someone smoking CCs for just 5 years has any real perspective into Cuban cigars, something I did point out, when recent releases are nowhere near what Cuban cigars used to be (and what turned a good number of us away from Cuban smokes). Occasional older Cuban smoke here and there doesn't make for an "expert", sorry to be blunt. Suckling has a long and proven experience and knows what Cubans were like in times gone by, something that is really not known to 99% or more here.

Read my post again... where did I imply that anyone here is claiming to be an "expert". I will say thet word again for you...."expert". I certainly don't consider myself to be an "expert" om Cuban cigars, or any cigars for that matter. But I know what I like, and I don't have to have a historical perspective into the profile of pre-embargo Cuban cigars to know what I like, and certainly am entitled to write "I like this cigar" in my review if I choose. You are right about apples to oranges, you are doing the same thing yourself.

That Suckling dude lightens his cigars not really the right way...or am I, how do you american people call it, a hair-splitter?
But their will be another cuban "expert"..he is not the only one who smokes cubans a lot.

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Just one question. How do you know that the cigar you smoked is the same he did?

Well he was talking about the Cuaba EL and their is only one Cuaba Limitada released. Pictures are on my site. I smoked it and in my opinion, comparred with the other EL and RE editions it was very mild and not special al all.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by cgarphotogallery

Well he was talking about the Cuaba EL and their is only one Cuaba Limitada released. Pictures are on my site. I smoked it and in my opinion, comparred with the other EL and RE editions it was very mild and not special al all.

There's been two Cuaba EL's and the first one (2000) in the jar is quite something to smoke.

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

There's been two Cuaba EL's and the first one (2000) in the jar is quite something to smoke.

No thats a millenium special, not an EL. In 2000 you had Hoyo,
Montecristo, Partagas and Romeo y Julieta. So must be the EL 2008.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by cgarphotogallery

Well he was talking about the Cuaba EL and their is only one Cuaba Limitada released. Pictures are on my site. I smoked it and in my opinion, comparred with the other EL and RE editions it was very mild and not special al all.

Sure. Except I am sure he bought it at a Habanos AUTHORIZED dealer, and provenance of yours, unless you also bought one at LCDH, is very questionable.

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Sure. Except I am sure he bought it at a Habanos AUTHORIZED dealer, and provenance of yours, unless you also bought one at LCDH, is very questionable.

Well EL are sold everywhere here in Holland at Habanos Specialists stores and LCDH sells the same EL as other stores. They maybe get the cigars a couple weeks earlier but thats it. So how hard you try....it will be the same stick.

My EL/ ER /LCDH collection:

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by cgarphotogallery

My EL/ ER /LCDH collection:

Which Fonseca is that?