stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

[14holestogie]

Originally Posted by icantbejon

These posts are always ammusing to read. No one ever takes opposing opinions very well.

I TAKE GREAT EXCEPTION TO THAT REMARK!

I don't know specifically why the B&M customer is worthy or considered more valuable, but nick perdomo. Rocky patel. La aurora and don pepin are hosting guys from our lounge at a considerable loss within the last year. Have all visited our lounge at least once in the last year. Eddie Ortega when I spoke with him said "I don't want to just sell to CI, Thompson and famous.". I don't have the numbers, but it would seem that these guys consider the local shops very valuable.
I believe that is a lucid conclusion. Please correct my dimentia if I'm wrong.

That may be a lucid conclusion, but you may also have lucid dreams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6lBx...eature=related


I have a feeling this thread will reach 1000 posts easily

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Remember, if Patel makes 40 bucks a box on 25 boxes your B&M buys, they make 1000 bucks. If they make 5 bucks a box on 3000 boxes CI buys, they make 15 grand. Sales volume often drives profit.

Oh, sure, Sean, use logic. Real nice.

Originally Posted by Legend

I don't know specifically why the B&M customer is worthy or considered more valuable, but nick perdomo. Rocky patel. La aurora and don pepin are hosting guys from our lounge at a considerable loss within the last year. Have all visited our lounge at least once in the last year. Eddie Ortega when I spoke with him said "I don't want to just sell to CI, Thompson and famous.". I don't have the numbers, but it would seem that these guys consider the local shops very valuable.
I believe that is a lucid conclusion. Please correct my dimentia if I'm wrong.

Seriously though, what is Ortega going to say when visiting a B&M...."I don't really care about these places, I make the real money from CI and Thompson."? Of course not. And I am sure that the B&Ms are valued by Rocky, Nick, etc, but to the point of forgoing the internet/catalog retailers? Not a chance.

[Noodles]

Originally Posted by icehog3

Oh, sure, Sean, use logic. Real nice.



Seriously though, what is Ortega going to say when visiting a B&M...."I don't really care about these places, I make the real money from CI and Thompson."? Of course not. And I am sure that the B&Ms are valued by Rocky, Nick, etc, but to the point of forgoing the internet/catalog retailers? Not a chance.

Eddies comment was unsolicited. We were discussing business and I explained how mine had started with a very large customer and I had concentrated on building many small customers so that one leaving me would never effect me. To which he responded "of course" and the rest of the quote. He was not catering to a local guy he was just talking business.

[Da Klugs]

I just had a good B&M. Self stirring when complete.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by Legend

Eddies comment was unsolicited. We were discussing business and I explained how mine had started with a very large customer and I had concentrated on building many small customers so that one leaving me would never effect me. To which he responded "of course" and the rest of the quote. He was not catering to a local guy he was just talking business.

I wasn't trying to imply that the comment was solicited. I was just stating that any good businessman or politician is going to work the crowd he is among at the time, so of course Ortega is going to say how important B&Ms are to him while he is in a B&M.

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

That may be a lucid conclusion, but you may also have lucid dreams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6lBx...eature=related


I have a feeling this thread will reach 1000 posts easily

Getting closer to 1000.

[Whee]

Who left the door open? I thought this one had died finally.

[thebiglebowski]

who the hell bumped this thing???

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

I believe that is a lucid conclusion. Please correct my dimentia if I'm wrong.

Oh I'm certain that you're right in concluding that the cigar manufacturers consider the B&Ms and their customers to be valuable. And I sometimes go to my local B&M simply to meet with reps and their rollers when they come to town. DPG, NP, CF or RP come to town and cigar smokers get excited and want to meet the legends in the industry. They come to the shop and besides chatting, buy cigars, maybe they try some new ones that they will like and buy. This is just part of the advertising that cigar manufacturers are involved with, as are online web sites.

But I was thinking "more valuable" in the sense of where do the profits originate from ... B&Ms or big internet shops. I'm personally inclined to think the profit split is not vastly unbalanced, if we combine all B&M sales v.s. all internet sales. This would suggest that manufacturers pay attention to and care about both models of sales. Which would argue against one getting better quality than the other.

Another thing that I was thinking about today is that often the first release of a cigar is superior to subsequent releases. Lets look at an example: La Aurora cien anos. I was not as excited about the last box I had (smoked ROTT) compared to ones I had when they were first released (smoked ROTT). My B&M has one of the first release boxes hidden away (you need to do some serious rooting or ask for them to find them). I bought one of those and liked it better than my recent box purchase. Was this due to some quality stratification at the manufacturer - B&M v.s. internet, as you suggest? Was it due to age? Was it because those B&M cigars were the first release? In the latter case, it is likely that the first release cigars are available longer at B&Ms than online - make sense?

Only the shadow knows.

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Oh I'm certain that you're right in concluding that the cigar manufacturers consider the B&Ms and their customers to be valuable. And I sometimes go to my local B&M simply to meet with reps and their rollers when they come to town. DPG, NP, CF or RP come to town and cigar smokers get excited and want to meet the legends in the industry. They come to the shop and besides chatting, buy cigars, maybe they try some new ones that they will like and buy. This is just part of the advertising that cigar manufacturers are involved with, as are online web sites.

But I was thinking "more valuable" in the sense of where do the profits originate from ... B&Ms or big internet shops. I'm personally inclined to think. the profit split is. not vastly unbalanced, if we combine all B&M sales v.s. all internet sales. This would suggest that manufacturers pay attention to and care about both models of sales. Which would argue against one getting better quality than the other.

Another thing that I was thinking about today is that often the first release of a cigar is superior to subsequent releases. Lets look at an example: La Aurora cien anos. I was not as excited about the last box I had (smoked ROTT) compared to ones I had when they were first released (smoked ROTT). My B&M has one of the first release boxes hidden away (you need to do some serious rooting or ask for them to find them). I bought one of those and liked it better than my recent box purchase. Was this due to some quality stratification at the manufacturer - B&M v.s. internet, as you suggest? Was it due to age? Was it because those B&M cigars were the first release? In the latter case, it is likely that the first release cigars are available longer at B&Ms than online - make sense?

Only the shadow knows.

Valid point. My only addendum would be that the locals are the shop that are in danger of going out of business and this would make you want to give them more attention or an edge. That is where the more valuable comes in they know there are a ton of guys who only smoke socially and would not order on the net or just don't do the "internet thing".

Originally Posted by Legend

Valid point. My only addendum would be that the locals are the shop that are in danger of going out of business and this would make you want to give them more attention or an edge. That is where the more valuable comes in they know there are a ton of guys who only smoke socially and would not order on the net or just don't do the "internet thing".

This is only true if you assume that the departure of that B&M creates a vacuum in the market that is not filled after it is out of business. There is a convenience factor to the guys that smoke socially to buy their sticks at the B&M so that is where they smoke and therefore that is where they buy.

Saying that they would then quit their cigar smoking outright as a result of not having the B&M is likely a stretch for 100% of them. Now of those I am sure many of them also buy online, otherwise this conversation you have had with your fellow lounge members would never have transpired (after all if they all bought there sticks at the B&M there would be no basis of comparison). I would argue that although many of them may reduce their consumption that they would not stop outright.

I don't think the "internet thing" is a fad nor is it an elitist or exclusionary group, e commerce continues to grow which is both good and bad for the consumer depending on your personal profile, for me its great, if I never had to go to another store I would be happy. Assuming I am getting the same product at the same or better price. I think there are many that have varying degrees of usage of e commerce and that is by either choice or necessity depending on each individual situation.

I would suggest that the internet has increased the breadth of cigar sales as those in markets that don't have a B&M (of which there are many ~ think of rural areas alone) now have access to cigars. On the other side of that I would suggest that manufacturers and retailers have increased the geographical scope of their offering. I am willing to bet that Rob at Tabboo would not have near the geographic penetration with his cigars if it where not for the internet.

I fail to see how any commercial application fits this theory that you propose on same products as in this box of CAO Brazilias at the B&M is of better quality than the exact same brand and type bought at Atlantic online. I as the consumer would find this to be an underhanded unethical approach to doing business as in the end it is the consumer that you are lying too and providing an inferior product too under the same branding.

This logic would imply that rental car companies who buy 1000's and 1000's of cars and trucks are getting a slightly inferior product than the mom and pop dealership that only gets 5 to 10 at a time.

It would imply that 1000's of tons of popcorn that an entertainment facility like a stadium buys is inferior to 100's of pounds the local theater buys.

It would imply that the triple A beef I get from my grocery store is of inferior quality compared to the triple A beef in my butcher shop yet it is graded by the same governmental standards.

It would imply that the cigarettes people buy at wal-mart are of lesser quality than the ones that are purchased at the owner owned convenience store on the corner.

It would imply that the 87 octane fuel I put in my truck at the local Esso station is inferior to the fuel that Esso sells to the local owned gas station.

I can go on and on and on.

While I will not dispute that the cigars from your B&M are better in the moment I think that the notion of different quality levels within the same branding and then sold based on that quality to different retailers is ludicrous.

This thread has no empirical evidence and in my opinion denies simple logic and flies in the face of ethical business practices. If it was uncovered that this was a normal practice for a manufacturer that they where knowingly providing an inferior product to the end consumer via one distribution method or another and concealing that fact from the consumer I would suspect that the repercussions could be legal in nature. If nothing else I can personally guarantee I would never purchase anything from that manufacturer if it was uncovered and I would pass that opinion along to whomever would listen.

Originally Posted by SilverFox

This is only true if you assume that the departure of that B&M creates a vacuum in the market that is not filled after it is out of business. There is a convenience factor to the guys that smoke socially to buy their sticks at the B&M so that is where they smoke and therefore that is where they buy.

Saying that they would then quit their cigar smoking outright as a result of not having the B&M is likely a stretch for 100% of them. Now of those I am sure many of them also buy online, otherwise this conversation you have had with your fellow lounge members would never have transpired (after all if they all bought there sticks at the B&M there would be no basis of comparison). I would argue that although many of them may reduce their consumption that they would not stop outright.

I don't think the "internet thing" is a fad nor is it an elitist or exclusionary group, e commerce continues to grow which is both good and bad for the consumer depending on your personal profile, for me its great, if I never had to go to another store I would be happy. Assuming I am getting the same product at the same or better price. I think there are many that have varying degrees of usage of e commerce and that is by either choice or necessity depending on each individual situation.

I would suggest that the internet has increased the breadth of cigar sales as those in markets that don't have a B&M (of which there are many ~ think of rural areas alone) now have access to cigars. On the other side of that I would suggest that manufacturers and retailers have increased the geographical scope of their offering. I am willing to bet that Rob at Tabboo would not have near the geographic penetration with his cigars if it where not for the internet.

I fail to see how any commercial application fits this theory that you propose on same products as in this box of CAO Brazilias at the B&M is of better quality than the exact same brand and type bought at Atlantic online. I as the consumer would find this to be an underhanded unethical approach to doing business as in the end it is the consumer that you are lying too and providing an inferior product too under the same branding.

This logic would imply that rental car companies who buy 1000's and 1000's of cars and trucks are getting a slightly inferior product than the mom and pop dealership that only gets 5 to 10 at a time.

It would imply that 1000's of tons of popcorn that an entertainment facility like a stadium buys is inferior to 100's of pounds the local theater buys.

It would imply that the triple A beef I get from my grocery store is of inferior quality compared to the triple A beef in my butcher shop yet it is graded by the same governmental standards.

It would imply that the cigarettes people buy at wal-mart are of lesser quality than the ones that are purchased at the owner owned convenience store on the corner.

It would imply that the 87 octane fuel I put in my truck at the local Esso station is inferior to the fuel that Esso sells to the local owned gas station.

I can go on and on and on.

While I will not dispute that the cigars from your B&M are better in the moment I think that the notion of different quality levels within the same branding and then sold based on that quality to different retailers is ludicrous.

This thread has no empirical evidence and in my opinion denies simple logic and flies in the face of ethical business practices. If it was uncovered that this was a normal practice for a manufacturer that they where knowingly providing an inferior product to the end consumer via one distribution method or another and concealing that fact from the consumer I would suspect that the repercussions could be legal in nature. If nothing else I can personally guarantee I would never purchase anything from that manufacturer if it was uncovered and I would pass that opinion along to whomever would listen.

Who says the ol' SilverFox is retired??

Damn.

[Tio Gato]

I like the chat about corned beef and beer. It reminds me to check next St. Patrick's Day to see if this thread is still alive.

[Sr Mike]

We really are in the Whacko Basket.

But there is good news........I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to geico.

[Starscream]

If 500 was Legendary, what does 600 make?