Let's Talk Supplements (again)

[E.J.]

I've searched and read, here and elsewhere....that said....

It's been so long since I wanted to bulk up, I'm out of my depth here. Oh...and I still have no desire to gain any bulk, I'm all about the leaner the better.... That said, the Little Man has ask me to buy him some supplements.....he wants to bulk up in the worst way.

He's strong as an ox...but LEAN, can't seem to add any size. You'd think with his frame(6'2" 175ish, think wiry and broad) & weightroom work 5 days a week(just an hour), he'd bulk up with little difficulty. Then again, his diet sucks. He's on the ice 5-6 days a week, is killing the cardio.

Did a little research and already purchased some stuff, but now am worried that maybe I'm over my head on this and figured I'd ask here and another forum(non-cigar) I frequent.

What is good, what is bad, what do I need to know?

Oh, purchased Con-Cret Creatine and USP Labs Modern BCAA +.... Read that you want creatine and BCAA's....so that's what I picked up...

[RobR1205]

I definitely relate to this post in many ways, so allow to give you my experience from a young'uns point of view. To give you an idea of where I currently stand: I am 6'0", turn 21 on December 5, and weight 205 pounds (<15% body fat). Strength-wise, I would like to put on a little bit more bulk and gain a little more strength, but I am definitely close to my goal and am almost ready to start maintaining myself -- any bigger, and I won't be able to shop at certain stores anymore (already grew out of Abercrombie/Hollister's largest shirt sizes)

But let's rewind the clocks almost three years ago when I was 18. This is when I first started to consider joining a gym and bulking up. I was 5'11" at the time, and only 155 pounds. The only sport I participated in was karate, which I had been doing (and still am doing) since I was 5. Karate, being a very cardio-based sport (especially sparring) kept me very lean.

To make a long story short, the supplements that I recommend for someone so young, and that have worked for me (mind you everyone's body is different, so who knows if you'll find this helpful) are the following:

What I consider essential:
Mass Gainer: (high calorie/carbohydrate protein powder): Since I had such a fast metabolism, the food I was eating, whether it was salads or McDonald's, kept me thin no matter what. The extra 800-1000 calories each day started to put some healthy weight on me. Plus the extra ~50g of protein helped muscle really develop. A word of caution: I really only recommend this to someone starting out and looking to put on some weight. Since I have such a large frame now, mass gainer really only causes me to get a nice gut and nothing else.

Protein Powder: Start off with something basic and relatively cheap -- no need to go for the most expensive one on the shelf. I started off with, currently use, and have a lot of success with Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard Whey. You get a lot of bang for your buck, and it's really not half bad. Just watch, a lot of proteins have BCAAs already mixed into their formula, so no need to buy BCAAs separately if you go this route.

Multivitamins: A very underrated, but important supplement. I found that I was not getting all the nutrients I needed from my daily food intake. Use it a supplement to a good diet, not as a replacement if you're eating crap. Micky D's and vitamins do not balance each other out.

What I consider optional:
Preworkout: Gives you a good boost in the gym. Essentially just caffeine and vasculodilaters (opens your blood vessels). However, I would recommend this supplement once you get into a good groove in the gym and you know what you are doing. I use preworkouts to get me over "plateaus" so I don't get overly dependent on it. It is certainly not essential, though. Many preworkouts contain "creatine" compounds, so no need to take it separately if it's already in one of your supplements. I like to limit myself to no more that 5g a day; 5g-15g if I decide to "load" during the first week I take it.

What I would stay away from:
Anything with the words "test", "andro", "hormone", or the like. At this age, your son is producing all the hormones he needs, and more -- no need to throw off his natural hormone balance. There are many perfectly legal testosterone boosters, maintainers, or whatever you want to call them out there, but I, as well as your son, are way too young to messing with this supplement.

My personal words of advice: results won't show over night, so don't get discouraged and don't go hunting for more supplements. As long as your son gets a good night's sleep, eats well, and drinks plenty of water, he should start seeing results in a couple of months. It has taken me 2.5 years to gain about 50 pounds, but that is a result of the above advice that I mentioned. Supplements are just that, supplements. They should be used to augment an already existing healthy diet and lifestyle. Just use them as they are intended, your son should be fine.

[RobR1205]

I can really relate to your son. I didn't like being so skinny and seeing some my friends start to turn into tanks. If he keeps up with it, I know he'll have success. Wish him the best for me!

And here's the 2.5 year transformation:

Summer 2011


Summer 2012


Summer 2013


**Note: tattoos won't actually start popping up on your son as he gains weight

[icehog3]

Some good advice from Rob.

I would add this...calories galore! At his age, his metabolism is super efficient, not to mention all that cardio from hockey. When I was under 25, I could eat everything I wanted, and never gain an ounce of fat....I went from 145 lbs at age 16 to 215 at age 19, with super low body fat, by eating everything I could get my hands on. Supplements are great, but as his age and with what it sounds like his metabolism is like, good old fashioned calories will do him best.

[RobR1205]

Originally Posted by icehog3

...by eating everything I could get my hands on. Supplements are great, but as his age and with what it sounds like his metabolism is like, good old fashioned calories will do him best.

Agree 100%. Personally, I go through a gallon of milk alone in less than 3 days, sometimes 2 -- and that's just milk. My appetite (a good one that is) really helped me pack on some good pounds. An old phrase that my friend used to say is: "You gotta eat big to get big"

[icehog3]

You sound a lot like me at your age, Rob....hopefully you learn quicker than I did too, wish I could be 25 again but know what I know now about my own response to training and nutrition.

[RobR1205]

Originally Posted by icehog3

You sound a lot like me at your age, Rob....

Back when you were only Lieutenant D-Bag!

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by RobR1205

Back when you were only Lieutenant D-Bag!

I was barely Corporal DBag at that point.

[czerbe]

Protein I try and eat 1 Gram of Protein per pound of body weight that will help, lots of Egg whites, chicken, Pork, Steak. Nothing wrong with Powders I use them but nothing beats good old fashion food!

[E.J.]

Thanks all!

I printed that, Rob....

[E.J.]

Well, I'll report back.... Information taken in. The first round of supplements are purchased. The wife usually picks up Dymatize Nutrition Elite Whey Protein Powder from Costco, so assuming that doesn't double up on what I have purchased, we'll look at that as well.

At his age I was 6'2" 195. He's 6'2" 175ish.... I have no doubt that he can bulk up with a little more time on the weights and taking in more than he burns, he's built just like me. Our diets were no different at his age(he probably eats better), I was in the weight room more @ his age, he does more cardio.

We're going to Cancun again this year for Spring Break....that gives him 5 months. I always do my lean up for SB and he's going to try to bulk up.... I'm at 207 as of this AM(I usually don't start until the first of the year).....we'll see if he weighs more than dad by April 1.



Before pic....^^^ He's actually a little thicker than this now & has a serious mullet( oll: ), this pic is old....but it's what I can access....

[Adriftpanda]

Some good advice from Tom and Rob. Here's my take on bulking.

NO ONE WANTS TO ADD ON 15LB of MARBLING FAT! There's a difference between clean bulk any dirty bulk. Dirty bulk isn't hard to do, stuff you damn face with high caloric foods. While clean bulk is weighing things out and being methodical about your surplus.

Dirty bulk and clean bulk is not about the types of food you eat. What I mean is, eating clean doesn't necessarily mean you only have to eat egg whites, brown rice, or yams whereas dirty bulk meaning eating ice cream, burgers and cake. The difference is how big of a surplus you create for yourself.

Everyone has a maintenance level of calories. For example, I try and maintain about 2600-2700 calories a day. I'm not in a deficit or surplus. But if I wanted to bulk, I would have to create a surplus, so by doing that I would have to consume MORE food. Now the difference between the clean and dirty bulk, is how many calories over the surplus you create.

Now, I recommend a slow and steady clean bulk. How? I suggest adding 100-200 calories surplus. It doesn't sound like a whole lot but, what you're doing is minimizing fat gains while trying to maximize your muscle gains. Adding 100 calorie surplus or 500 calories, it doesn't matter. You WILL GAIN FAT! But that doesn't mean you have to get fat, right? With the smaller surplus I recommend, you will put on weight slow (1-2lb a month) and some will see this as pointless BUT if your son is in this for the long run and you want to see some mass gains or lean gain, he will have to be patient. Muscle gains is a relatively slow process. So, with that being said. There's no point of dirty bulk because a majority of that will be fat.

Your son: 6'2, 175 and exercise daily (intensively)
Maintenance calories per day 2,938 (round up to 2,950)

Here is an example of why I do not recommend dirty bulk. If he was to eat whatever he wanted and created a HUGE amount of surplus, say 500-600 calories.

2950 + 500 extra calories
That is = 1lb a week, 4lb a week, and 48lb a year

How much of that is really muscle? So that, is why I recommend a slow steady bulk. He is young, he will continue to play sports and exercise daily. There's no need to rush and bulk up fast.

As far as supplements, I would just stick to the basics. Whey protein, casein protein, and some bcaa. Anything else is just a waste of money in my opinion.
I hope this helps.

[RobR1205]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Thanks all!

I printed that, Rob....

Glad you found it useful!

[E.J.]

Guess we'll start after the holidays....

[Chainsaw13]

Bones aren't supposed to bend like that. Sorry brother, hope it heals quickly. How'd it happen?

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Chainsaw13

Bones aren't supposed to bend like that. Sorry brother, hope it heals quickly. How'd it happen?

Hockey game.... Benign hit that ended up far worse than it looked...just one of those freak things that happen sometimes.

[hammondc]

Originally Posted by Adriftpanda

Your son: 6'2, 175 and exercise daily (intensively)
Maintenance calories per day 2,938 (round up to 2,950)

.

I am curious where this maintenance # comes from. I'm not challenging it, I am genuinely curious.

I am trying to drop some weight after being out of it for about 18 months due to a partial achilles tear and shoulder injuries. I am 5'8" and MyFitnessPal puts my needs at 2440 for maintenance at my current weight of 188lb. 1940 should net me a pound a week. I want to get back to 165 where I was before.

[dijit]

My fitness pal bases the calorie intake on a basic formula used by the medical and fitness industry. Keep in mind it is a generic formula designed to work with a majority of the population. Some people like myself dont fit that majority. Fitness pal recommends I have 2950 per day to drop over the next 6 to 8 weeks to 240 however I have found that at that level of intake I am maintaining my weight of 250. The industry also thinks I am obese because I am 6' 3" and 250 and should only weigh 175. However due to my skeletal build my Dr tells me at 175 I would at an unhealthy size and have problems with my immune system.

[hammondc]

Originally Posted by dijit

My fitness pal bases the calorie intake on a basic formula used by the medical and fitness industry. Keep in mind it is a generic formula designed to work with a majority of the population. Some people like myself dont fit that majority. Fitness pal recommends I have 2950 per day to drop over the next 6 to 8 weeks to 240 however I have found that at that level of intake I am maintaining my weight of 250. The industry also thinks I am obese because I am 6' 3" and 250 and should only weigh 175. However due to my skeletal build my Dr tells me at 175 I would at an unhealthy size and have problems with my immune system.

Yep. That is why I am curious where his number comes from. I want to compare a few calculators to get an average target. I think mfp is a little high.

Don't get me started on BMI.

[Adriftpanda]

Originally Posted by hammondc

I am curious where this maintenance # comes from. I'm not challenging it, I am genuinely curious.

I am trying to drop some weight after being out of it for about 18 months due to a partial achilles tear and shoulder injuries. I am 5'8" and MyFitnessPal puts my needs at 2440 for maintenance at my current weight of 188lb. 1940 should net me a pound a week. I want to get back to 165 where I was before.

I base my numbers off of calorieking.com

Note that the reason for such high caloric consumption was because his activity level was high. I was actually off by 100 calories.

I just entered his numbers in and for maintanance it was 2650-2850.