College Hoops Thread 2011-2012

[The Poet]

Bear, I apologize if I jumped on you for misguided reasons, but as I said your link took me nowhere, so fault me for jumping to conclusions based on a false assumption. I'd agree in principle about the Googs and Corchiani issue, for in principle their verbosity would justify the referees throwing about 9000 people out of Cameron Indoor Stadium each and every game. But specifically, I was led to understand that they leaned far over the scorer's table between the men trying to do their job in order to voice their objections, which to me is unacceptable. As for holding onto grudges and expressing protests well after the fact, I've never been much of a fan of such attitudes, even if I understand their motivation, since it seems poor sportsmanship. That holds for my own team as well. Gerald Henderson was roundly booed in his return to Chapel Hill the year after he broke Tyler Hansbrough's nose, which was fine, but the signs in the stands that put a target on him went too far. Hell, it's just a game, brothers and sisters. Calm down.

Now, I do agree that a ref should not react in such a vulgar manner to a protest by a coach. My only question, which maybe you can answer, would be how hard had Gottfried been riding the refs all game. It was a rough contest, at least by ACC standards, with a lot of fouls called on both teams. If the ref blew up so badly with this merely being an understandable objection by Gottfried at a critical point of the game, that's one thing. However, if the coach had been riding him all afternoon, screaming and yelling at each and every call that did not go his way, or maybe wasn't made at all, it may not forgive the ref's vulgarity but it could somewhat explain it.

Can we get to some new news now, and leave the other stuff alone for now at least? The biggest news today is, sadly for Syracuse fans, not the fact that action starts this evening in Dayton with the so-called "play-in" first round action. It has been announced that starting center for the Orange, Fab Melo, has been declared ineligable for play throughout the entire NCAA tournament. This suspension has come from the university, not the NCAA, and the reason has yet to be released. However, the young man was suspended for (I believe) 3 games earlier this year for academic reasons. We cannot assume this is the case here, but it does indicate it may be a possibility.

Now if you know me, and have read my posts here throughout the year, you won't be surprised to hear I did not give Syracuse much of a chance to make the Final Four even before this announcement. Partly this is due to the fact that, despite the fact they have a number of very good athletes, they do not seem to have one true stud they can count on to get them a basket when they really really need one. But mainly it is because I do not trust that zone of theirs to fair especially well against quality opposition in "one-and-done" games night after night throughout tournament play. Historically, it hasn't, and I see no good reason to think it would this year, expecially without a Carmelo on the team. Now that they won't have another Melo available . . . well, I hope you haven't filled out your bracket yet.

This makes the third hit the Orange has taken this season. It began with the child molestation charges against ass't. coach Bernie Fine, then took another hit a week or so back with the story about former players failing drug tests without receiving the suspensions the university rules demanded. Now, coming into the tourney, only UK has played better as a team than the Orange (OK, Joe, maybe your Racers, but we're sort of talking apples and, uh, oranges here). Will this third strike against them destroy the team chemistry they have built all year, or will they refocus and fight even harder to overcome all the distractions and adjustments? I'd vote for the former, but it will be interesting to see what transpires. Specifically, I can't give UNC-Asheville much more than a puncher's shot at knocking them out, thus becoming the first 16-seed to take out a 1-seed, but their next game against either K-State or Southern Miss might be pretty interesting. Down the road, there's potential opponents like Vandy, Wisconsin, Florida State, and Ohio State. That ain't easy, even at full strength.

Maybe I'll get a chance to get back here and talk tonight's games, but for now I have some work to do . . . dammit.

[The Poet]

There are actually two NCAA games tonight, as you likely know, and so let's talk about them a bit.


Mississippi Valley State vs. Western Kentucky = These two mid-majors will battle for the right to get spanked by the UK Wildcats come Thursday. Hey, on the bright side, one of them will get a win in the NCAAs, right? The Delta Devils won the SWAC, and if they can survive and advance this evening it shall not be the first time this season they have faced top-flight opposition. Already this year they played Notre Dame, UNC, Arkansas, Northwestern, Ole Miss, Florida, and Wisconsin. That's a tough non-conference schedule by anyone's account. Of course, they lost them all, but at least they know what it is like to face tough matchups. The SWAC is not that tough, and the only quality non-conference win they got was against Tennessee State, the school that spoiled Joe's Racers perfecto. As for the Hilltoppers, they stunk up the Sun Belt all year long, but made a run to take the conference tourney and snag the automatic as a sub.500 team. Oddly, their only quality win this year was against Tenn. State too, but their "quality" losses were not as good, being to St. Joe's, VCU, Louisville, and Joe's Racers of Murray State. Western Kentucky has a better program historically, but I feel that the Delta Devils may have the better team this year. Still, I admit I don't know enough about either squad to give you a gimme here.


BYU vs. Iona = Nor do I here either, though again I am confident that the WCC is better than the MAAC. The Cougars finished 3rd in that league, yet still got the at-large, while the Gaels finished 1st in the regular season but failed in their tourney, and was a surprise to many that they got the at-large in the first place. That should tell you something. Speaking of Gaels, those from St. Mary's, as well as Gonzaga and San Francisco, give you some idea how tough the WCC could be. BYU had good wins over Nevada, Oregon, Utah, and Virginia Tech, with the Lobos being the only one that truly impresses me, while they lost to Wisconsin and Baylor outside the league. Iona lost to Purdue and Marshall, both a step down from those Ls above, with good wins over Maryland, St. Joe's, Richmond, Vermont, and those Nevada Lobos again. At the start of the season many experts picked Iona to be the main Cinderella story this year, and I give them a fair chance of surviving a Fredette-less BYU team. On the other hand, I do believe the Cougars have faced some consistently tougher competition, so they won't back down either. Flip a coin, enjoy the game, then wait to see who gets a shot at Marquette on Thursday.


If you have any insight, input, questions, objections, complaints, whines, boasts, whatever, feel free to pipe up. And if you wanna talk any NIT or other alphabet-soup tournament, just say so. Until later then, enjoy.

[jcruse64]

Hilltoppers advance on a wild last 5 minutes, with WKU coming back from double-digit deficit to win. Pretty exciting start...only wish it was carried on basic cable so we could see it too .

Yeah, I'm with both of you on 'Cuse. One story on #1 seeds has been that the SEC has not helped UK prepare for the Dance this year, but I say 'Cuse has a similar issue. With Melo now out, it's gonna be rough. K State will not be easy for them.

I'd LOVE to score tickets for game 2 Thursday, after Murray's game, but ain't EVEN gonna spend that much $$$! Will be listening on the drive home, I guess.

And I'm with ya, DaBear, on there being no excuse for a ref to go back on a coach like that for arguing a call. Coaches get tossed for talking to refs in such a manner, and it should go both ways.

[gettysburgfreak]

Slightly worried about my hometown team the CUSE since Fab Mello wont be playing in the tourney. We were a bad rebounding team with him and without him its really going to be an exploited weakness. Hopefully they can shoot the ball well compared to how they have been shooting recently to make up for it.

[The Poet]

For some damn reason the nice weather has brought out all the nutz and bozos, so I've been pressed for time. Two very strange games last night:


Western Kentucky 59 - Mississippi Valley State 58 = The Delta Devils had this in the bag, with a 16-point lead and under 5 to play. Well, I guess an ugly loss was appropriate, as this was an ugly game by both teams, with the possible exception of the late run by the Hilltoppers.

BYU 78 - Iona 72 = In contrast, this was 2 halves of very good hoops, albeit from opposing sides. The Gaels came out like a vintage Loyola-Marymount or UNLV team and ran the Cougars off the court, building a huge 25-point lead. Then they ran themselves out of gas, and BYU made the adjustments on both ends to erase the largest deficit in NCAA history to advance.


Tonight's games:


Lamar vs. Vermont = This has the potential to be another close one, and will decide who gets to challenge my Tar Heels on Friday. Pat Knight does not have the players his daddy used to get, and isn't the floor general Bobby was either, but he does seem to have inherited Papa's sparkling personality. Outside of league play, his Cardinals have "good" losses against quality competition like Louisville, Ohio State, Kentucky, and George Mason, but their best wins were with Charlotte and Tennessee Tech. The Catamounts lost to such guys as South Florida, Harvard, and Saint Louis, but toss into that a terrible loss to the Binghamton Bearcats, who had only 2 Ws all year. VT did get a nice win against ODU, so give them that. As I'm not about to pick who I want UNC to face, I'll leave that up to you.

South Florida vs. California = Now this could actually be a pretty decent game, like that BYU/Iona one. The Bulls had no good wins outside the Big East, and considering how Cincy and Louisville played at times this year I'm not sure how good those Ws actually were. Yet they did lose to some good teams, like ODU, VCU, Kansas, and Southern Miss, so they learned some things from that. As for the Golden Bears, I count myself amongst those who don't believe the Pac-12 is as abysmal as many others feel. True, I see no quality wins outside the league for Cal, but losing to Missouri, San Diego State, and UNLV counts for something in my book . . . especially when you consider that Mizzou had them as about the ONLY "tough" non-conference opponent, whereas Cal at least tried to play somebody else. I'm leaning towards the Bulls here, but it would not shock me if the Bears could shock the nation. Remember last year the Pac-10 was bad-mouthed all year, yet did pretty well in the NCAAs.


If I get a chance I'll come back to talk of early action scheduled tomorrow, when the fun kicks off for real. But if I don't get that chance, I hope you'll do what I plan on starting noon tomorrow, and enjoy.

[yourchoice]

I can't wait to get home so I can watch a ton of basketball tonight on the big screen!

Anyone predicting any upsets for the rest of Thursday's games? I thing Long Beach State will upset New Mexico, and I could see Colorado challenging UNLV, but I don't know if I'd call that an upset.

It looks like Syracuse is struggling without Melo against NC-Asheville. Like a lot of people, I had them losing early...but certainly not this early. Game is a long way from over, but they certainly shouldn't be down 4 at the half.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by yourchoice

I can't wait to get home so I can watch a ton of basketball tonight on the big screen!

Anyone predicting any upsets for the rest of Thursday's games? I thing Long Beach State will upset New Mexico, and I could see Colorado challenging UNLV, but I don't know if I'd call that an upset.

It looks like Syracuse is struggling without Melo against NC-Asheville. Like a lot of people, I had them losing early...but certainly not this early. Game is a long way from over, but they certainly shouldn't be down 4 at the half.

Well, what do you consider an upset? Is that a 6-11 game? From what I saw last weekend against Arizona, I can't give Colorado much of a shot against UNLV. How about 5-12? Can Harvard knock Vandy out? As psycho as the Comms have been this year, I could see the Crimson giving them all they can handle, especially if Vandy has another of their off nights . . . which they have had too often. Or maybe VCU over Wichita State? That may be your best shot at a 12 beating a 5 right there, though I don't expect VCU will make a run to the Final Four again this tourney, like they did last year. But they are confident, and they have been there before, so who knows?

I would expect that the Orange will come back in the 2nd half to survive their scare against UNC-A, but don't put all the onus on Melo being out. Not only have I expressed my doubts about that zone getting one through a tourney for YEARS now, you need take note that the Bulldogs have played some pretty good non-conference opponents this season, and are not intimidated by the fact. They started off at NCSU, hosted UNC-CH, visited U Conn and Tennessee, and played host to Charleston and Utah. If nothing else, they've seen some "big" names on the fronts of jerseys before today.

Update shortly.

P.S. - As for Long Beach vs. NM, I will point out that the 49ers lost at my Tar Heels by only 6, and won at Xavier by 10, so I agree they have a shot. At the moment, 8 left in the 1st, the Lobos are only up a point.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Well, what do you consider an upset?

I use the betting line to gauge an upset. If the spread is around 3-4 or less, I consider it a mild upset. 4-5 or more, an upset. Sometimes just a higher seeding isn't indicitive of an upset, IMO.

[SD Beerman]

SDSU is a 6 seed and they are 2 point dogs to NC State......

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by yourchoice

I use the betting line to gauge an upset. If the spread is around 3-4 or less, I consider it a mild upset. 4-5 or more, an upset. Sometimes just a higher seeding isn't indicitive of an upset, IMO.

Originally Posted by SD Beerman

SDSU is a 6 seed and they are 2 point dogs to NC State......

Well, I'm just a country boy, and not a Vegas bookie. So talk to Charles Barkley, not to Kenny Smith.

[The Poet]

With 4 1/2 left, Marquette is on the verge of putting the game against BYU out of reach. Maybe I'll have a final before I finish this, but as for last night:


Vermont 71 - Lamar 59 = The Catamounts take care of business in a very competent manner, and move on to face UNC tomorrow.

South Florida 65 - California 54 = So maybe I was wrong about the Pac-12 being under-rated, though after seeing how lousy that Colorado/Arizona championship game in the league finals was, I have no good excuse. On the other hand, I guess the Golden Bears did do pretty good at making their loss somewhat respectable, considering they scored only 13 stinkin' points in the first half.


In afternoon action today:


Murray State 58 - Colorado State 41 = Congratulations to Joe's Racers for knocking off the Rams to advance, though CSU helped them a ton in the 2nd half with bad shots and TOs. As this is the first time I've seen Joe's boys all year, I have no idea if this game was typical of their play or not. But from what I saw they have very nice perimeter defense, a few pretty effective scorers, and the hustle to force some action and create some of those loose balls. On the other hand, I have to say that, if you assume that Hornung kid is not the new Kurt Rambis, I fear that if they don't learn to box out a little better some team down the road is gonna kill them off the glass.

Kansas State 70 - Southern Miss 64 = The Manhattan 'Cats made enough good plays down the stretch to edge out a feisty SM team, who made enough late plays of their own to keep the issue in question until under a minute to go. All in all, a pretty good game on both sides.

Wisconsin 73 - Montana 49 = Both teams normally want a glacial style of play, but for the Badgers to rack up that many points . . . well, for them that's Runnin' Rebels scoring. I didn't get to see this, but they must have cleaned up on the defensive boards off Montana misses to get that many possessions, and maybe even a few breakaways.

Louisville 69 - Davidson 62 = Here's another game I did not see, but I'm not surprised the Wildcats gave Pitino so good a fight. Firstly, they have a pretty good team themselves. Secondly, the Cards have played down to their opponents all year long, so why should that be any different today?


As I figured, I now have that final:


Marquette 88 - BYU 68 = The Cougars fell 'way behind the Iona Gaels in their play-in game, yet came back to grab a victory. Well, they could not do the same today. The Golden Eagles jumped on them early and often, and kept the pressure going well enough to cruise into their match-up with Joe's Racers on Saturday. So Joe, if your guys really truly believe they should have gotten a higher seed, they can prove it then by knocking Marquette out of The Dance. From what I saw, that won't be easy.


Syracuse has taken control of their game against UNC-A, and are up 8 with 2:10 to go. It ain't over, but it is looking better for the Orange faithful. All the other games are too early and too close to even mean anything yet.


Back later.

[The Poet]

We've already talked some about later games today, like the VCU/Wichita St. one, and some of them don't much interest me all that much. Loyola MD vs. Ohio State? South Dakota State vs. Baylor? Even in-state "rivals" Western Kentucky vs. UK doesn't do it for me. But there are a few that look to have some potential, such as:


West Virginia vs. Gonzaga = Both schools have had better teams in the past, yet both still have some fairly decent players who can ball a bit. This could be a lot of fun, and may go down to who executes in the last 2 minutes.

U Conn vs. Iowa State = The Huskies have talent from the neck down, and air from the neck up. Plus, they don't fair well out of their comfort zone, which is no more than 30 miles from Storrs. Meanwhile the Cyclones have faced tough competition, and has had good success against it, beating the like of Kansas, Missouri, Baylor, and K-State (2X!). I'm looking for one of two things here; an all-out war, or the Cyclones blowing the Huskies right out of the Bucket.

New Mexico State vs. Indiana = Don't get me wrong, as I'm not gonna pick a 13 to knock off a 4 here, though it does happen. The Hoosiers are certainly the better team, no doubt. Plus, I'm not about to pick against baby brother Cody Zeller, even if he's wearing red and not blue. But IU just lost their point guard Verdell Jones III to a torn ACL, so it will be interesting to see how they adjust.


Vandy's gone up 10 at the break over Harvard, and LBS is hanging with NM. Otherwise:


Syracuse 72 - UNC-A 65 = The Orange have to fight to survive, yet manage to escape being the first 1 to fall to a 16-seed. How much longer they survive remains to be seen. Sometimes a fight like this can focus a team, and sometimes it just shows how vulnerable they are.

Maybe back later, maybe not. Regardless, enjoy.

[The Poet]

Back briefly with two non-hoops stories:


It seems like a few members of Southern Miss's band is in deep doo-doo with their dean. They started chanting "Where's your green card?" at a K-State player born in Puerto Rico. When you couple the ignorance of the chant itself with the ignorance of the fact that a child born in the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico is a citizen of the United States and NEEDS no green card leads one to question the academic standards down them there parts. The school has already issued an apology, yet you can expect some discipline for the offenders.

Do you remember that Christian Laettner shot 'way back in the 1991 East Regional that beat Kentucky? Do you remember the great pass that Grant Hill made to his teammate which led to the bucket? Well, not only do the people at UPS remember, it seems the folks in Lexington do too. You may have seen the commercial UPS has been running which touts the guy who makes the delivery. The Big Blue Nation objects to said commercial, and has requested (Demanded?? That seems more like them.) that UPS stop running the commercial. Hey, 'Cats, why don't you concern yourself more with the present, and win the games this time, instead of obsessing over something 21 years in the past? Jeez, makes sense to me.

[The Poet]

I'll post more later, but at the moment I'm involved in seeing if Jerry's Wolfpack can hold on to knock out Larry's Aztecs. With 4 minutes left, the 'Pack up 8.

[Col. Kurtz]

Originally Posted by The Poet

I'll post more later, but at the moment I'm involved in seeing if Jerry's Wolfpack can hold on to knock out Larry's Aztecs. With 4 minutes left, the 'Pack up 8.

Found this on the interwebz. Looks like the faithful like Gottfried...

[The Poet]

Sorry I've not been back, but I got wrapped up in that NCSU/SDSU game, and then the Fla. State/Bonnies war, then my Heels as it took them a while to get ahold of VT, and now Mizzou fighting for their lives against Norfolk State. We'll play some catch-up tomorrow, I promise.

[jcruse64]

Wolfpack survives; good on them!

1st BIG upset; Norfolk State hangs on to knock off Mizzou Woooohhhhh!!!!

Racers vs Marquette upper level tickets were $150 per when we got home last night. Over $300 per today; will be watching from the recliner tomorrow!!!

As always, a fun tourney so far. Hope you guys are enjoying it.

[kelmac07]

Norfolk State beating Mizzo is all everyone is talking about here...oh and VCU as well.

[mase]

Down goes Duke! Down goes Duke!

[Col. Kurtz]

Originally Posted by mase

Down goes Duke! Down goes Duke!

Bet that just screwed up EVERYBODY'S brackets...