Vacume sealing Box

[cigarlvr]

If I was to vacume seal a box wouldn't I be ok with just leaving it in a cool area being they shouldbe air tight is that correct? I have run out of storage and no more coolers to be bought being I have 6 already so thinking this may be the way to go for a bit. Anyone tried this yet and for long term?

[kelmac07]

Buy a small tupperware container and place water pillow in it. Very inexpensive and a quick solution for some short term storage.

[Raralith]

The problem with vaccum sealing is that it seems to screw with the cigar. Cigars need oxygen, they need to breathe, and while most NC's are already well aged, they still age a bit more. If storage is your problem, and you want to keep your cigars properly humidified, I might suggest start smoking, gifting, stop buying, or figure out how to store more; I would go for the last option. Got room under the bed? Buy one of those large, flat, plastic containers that can fit under there. Sure, it isn't air tight so you'll need to actively work on keeping the humidity up by rehydrating beads or adding more water, but it sure would be a hell of a lot better than what you are thinking.

Would it be good for the long term? Probably not.

[karmaz00]

agree, may be a small tupperware container with a water pillow might do the trick

[DocLogic77]

Originally Posted by Raralith

The problem with vaccum sealing is that it seems to screw with the cigar. Cigars need oxygen, they need to breathe, and while most NC's are already well aged, they still age a bit more. If storage is your problem, and you want to keep your cigars properly humidified, I might suggest start smoking, gifting, stop buying, or figure out how to store more; I would go for the last option. Got room under the bed? Buy one of those large, flat, plastic containers that can fit under there. Sure, it isn't air tight so you'll need to actively work on keeping the humidity up by rehydrating beads or adding more water, but it sure would be a hell of a lot better than what you are thinking.

Would it be good for the long term? Probably not.

Are you sure cigars need oxygen? I have heard that before...but I'm not so sure it's true. I believe there is a theory out there by a well known, and well respected aficionado that cigars age best (long term) by reduction reactions rather than oxidative reactions. You would obtain this by properly sealing the cigars in an oxygen free environment. I wouldn't recommend vacuum sealing...but some sort of large ziplock should work. After the initial oxygen is used...the aging process would be a slow reduction process...which is supposed to give a better, more refined aged product.

But, like I said I believe this is all theory and I have no first hand knowledge. I have set up some of my stock...so that I can compare and contrast. I have some cigars sealed with zip lock...then the same ones from that year just in regular storage. All stored in the same humidor on the same shelf. At 10,15 and 20 years I want to pull out 5-10 from each box...and have 5-10 well respected BOTL sample and give opinions. I think that's the only way a debate like this will be settled.

[bobarian]

Originally Posted by DocLogic77

Are you sure cigars need oxygen? I have heard that before...but I'm not so sure it's true. I believe there is a theory out there by a well known, and well respected aficionado that cigars age best (long term) by reduction reactions rather than oxidative reactions. You would obtain this by properly sealing the cigars in an oxygen free environment. I wouldn't recommend vacuum sealing...but some sort of large ziplock should work. After the initial oxygen is used...the aging process would be a slow reduction process...which is supposed to give a better, more refined aged product.

But, like I said I believe this is all theory and I have no first hand knowledge. I have set up some of my stock...so that I can compare and contrast. I have some cigars sealed with zip lock...then the same ones from that year just in regular storage. All stored in the same humidor on the same shelf. At 10,15 and 20 years I want to pull out 5-10 from each box...and have 5-10 well respected BOTL sample and give opinions. I think that's the only way a debate like this will be settled.

This was my understanding as well. Long term aging is based upon a slowing of the fermentation process not acceleration. But there are also two clearly divergent schools of storage as well. In the Far East the tendency is toward low temp/low Rh, whereas many Europeans recommend a much higher rh and temp.

[DocLogic77]

Originally Posted by bobarian

This was my understanding as well. Long term aging is based upon a slowing of the fermentation process not acceleration. But there are also two clearly divergent schools of storage as well. In the Far East the tendency is toward low temp/low Rh, whereas many Europeans recommend a much higher rh and temp.

That's $$$. I know the French like their CC at 70%+...even some breaking into the high 70's. The aficionado I spoke of keeps his stock in the low 60s F and at 58% rh. That's why I don't believe we know the right answer. Being a man of science and still fairly young I figured if I'm blessed with a long life I could set up a very subjective study. I think it would take many studies like this one to convince most of the smoking world that one particular style of aging is better than others.

As for slowing down the process that's absolutely correct. And that's why it makes more sense to me to lower temp, rh, and seal the cigars. The three things that speed up aging are temperature, room humidity, and oxygen.

[Raralith]

Are you sure cigars need oxygen? I have heard that before...but I'm not so sure it's true.

I've actually tried MRN's recommended method of speeding up fermentation with a box of CC Punch Punch's that had a very strong amonia smell. Half the box stayed in the box, the other half went into my 20 count humidor and I opened it for a few hours a day. It took probably a bit more than a month but the smell was nearly gone. I threw it into an empty cab than placed it in my Vino for a week or so, and than compared. The ones that never got any ventillation still had a very strong amonia smell while the ventillated ones had a much less of that smell. This of course ruins the aging process. I also keep my cigars in zip lock bags and I also agree with as little air as possible. But no air, vacum sealed? No thanks.

[DocLogic77]

UOTE=Raralith;370689]I've actually tried MRN's recommended method of speeding up fermentation with a box of CC Punch Punch's that had a very strong amonia smell. Half the box stayed in the box, the other half went into my 20 count humidor and I opened it for a few hours a day. It took probably a bit more than a month but the smell was nearly gone. I threw it into an empty cab than placed it in my Vino for a week or so, and than compared. The ones that never got any ventillation still had a very strong amonia smell while the ventillated ones had a much less of that smell. This of course ruins the aging process. I also keep my cigars in zip lock bags and I also agree with as little air as possible. But no air, vacum sealed? No thanks.

[/quote]

I wont vacuum seal anymore...and this was a recent change for me (mainly because I wonder if negative pressure environments could draw oils out of the cigar)...but I personally put some of my stock in airtight bags. I do not believe you need oxygen for long term aging...and actually I would think it to be detrimental. The theory has been compared to aging fine wines and the reasoning is scientifically sound.

The speeding up of fermentation is certainly desireable with young sticks you plan on smoking soon. But, the slowing is supposed to be desireable for long term aging. Reduction reactions > oxidative reactions for long term aging therefore according to the theory...an oxygen free environment would be needed.

As for not being able to seal really young boxes due to ammonia...that I have never heard. I would assume the ammonia would also break down in an oxygen free environment...it would just take longer...as with all reduction processes.

But, as I said before...this is all theory and I don't know that there are right and wrong answers. It really does depend on who you ask.

[Clampdown]

Originally Posted by DocLogic77

Are you sure cigars need oxygen? I have heard that before...but I'm not so sure it's true. I believe there is a theory out there by a well known, and well respected aficionado that cigars age best (long term) by reduction reactions rather than oxidative reactions. You would obtain this by properly sealing the cigars in an oxygen free environment. I wouldn't recommend vacuum sealing...but some sort of large ziplock should work. After the initial oxygen is used...the aging process would be a slow reduction process...which is supposed to give a better, more refined aged product.

But, like I said I believe this is all theory and I have no first hand knowledge. I have set up some of my stock...so that I can compare and contrast. I have some cigars sealed with zip lock...then the same ones from that year just in regular storage. All stored in the same humidor on the same shelf. At 10,15 and 20 years I want to pull out 5-10 from each box...and have 5-10 well respected BOTL sample and give opinions. I think that's the only way a debate like this will be settled.

I think we can agree, theory or not, the guy knows what he is talking. That alone makes me follow that theory.

[DocLogic77]

Originally Posted by Clampdown

I think we can agree, theory or not, the guy knows what he is talking. That alone makes me follow that theory.

Absolutely.

[GoatLocker]

Originally Posted by cigarlvr

If I was to vacume seal a box wouldn't I be ok with just leaving it in a cool area being they shouldbe air tight is that correct? I have run out of storage and no more coolers to be bought being I have 6 already so thinking this may be the way to go for a bit. Anyone tried this yet and for long term?

It depends on the bag and how well it contains moisture. I know of at least one person who performed an experiment where he sealed a digital hygrometer in a vacuum bag with a box of cigars. If my memory serves me well, the humidity had held steady for 18 months or so last I heard. I don't think I would count on this long term, especially with no indication of the conditions inside the bag...

As for aging, I would agree with the slow is better, to a point. IMHO, this is why tubos tend to age well. I have a pair of 06 party coronas dress boxes that are stored together, one sealed in a vacuum bag and the other not. I doubt they will make it to 10 years, but 5 is not far off and should give a good indication of how the different approaches effect the cigars.