The Bourbon Thread!!

[JohnnyFlake]

Well guys, I must apologize. The Pappy has all vanish, and today, I found out why.

I went to the three biggest liquor stores in the Las Vegas/Henderson Area. A Total Wine was one of them and that is where I got the info about Pappy's availability.

When I saw a bunch of Pappy on the shelves, it was either the first week or second week of January. It was explained to me today that Pappy is a very limited production and even more limited with distribution. The killer is that it is only distributed in the month of December, each year. Once a year!

The "Total Wine" I was at said that they only received less than half of what they had ordered and that it came in a couple of days after Christmas. What they did receive, was all sold out by the end of January. They won't get any more until December.

Had I known when I saw it in early January, I would have picked up a few bottles. I have a nearly full bottle of 15yo old left and that's it!

[hammondc]

Has anyone come across Elmer T Lee bourbon since his passing? It is impossible to find these days.

[tsolomon]

Originally Posted by hammondc

Has anyone come across Elmer T Lee bourbon since his passing? It is impossible to find these days.

I thought my local stores still had it, but it shows as out of inventory at all the stores.

[MarkinAZ]

Checked BevMo out my way Chip, and shows out of stock. Total Wine does not list it for their San Fernando Valley store

It is tasty stuff though!

[big pete]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

Well guys, I must apologize. The Pappy has all vanish, and today, I found out why.

I went to the three biggest liquor stores in the Las Vegas/Henderson Area. A Total Wine was one of them and that is where I got the info about Pappy's availability.

When I saw a bunch of Pappy on the shelves, it was either the first week or second week of January. It was explained to me today that Pappy is a very limited production and even more limited with distribution. The killer is that it is only distributed in the month of December, each year. Once a year!

The "Total Wine" I was at said that they only received less than half of what they had ordered and that it came in a couple of days after Christmas. What they did receive, was all sold out by the end of January. They won't get any more until December.

Had I known when I saw it in early January, I would have picked up a few bottles. I have a nearly full bottle of 15yo old left and that's it!

Man, that's like hitting the lotto and throwing away the ticket! Might be the one and only time you run into that

Originally Posted by hammondc

Has anyone come across Elmer T Lee bourbon since his passing? It is impossible to find these days.

I have. Helped ironchefscott pick up two bottles. Let me know if you're still looking and I can grab a bottle next time I see it.

[hammondc]

Let me know the price tag. In the past 18 months, it has varied wildly in my area.

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by big pete

Man, that's like hitting the lotto and throwing away the ticket! Might be the one and only time you run into that



I have. Helped ironchefscott pick up two bottles. Let me know if you're still looking and I can grab a bottle next time I see it.

Originally Posted by hammondc

Let me know the price tag. In the past 18 months, it has varied wildly in my area.

WTB/WTS for alcohol is not permitted at CA.
Please refrain from posting publicly about it.
What you do via PM is your business.

[hammondc]

Yessir!

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by hammondc

Yessir!

[OHMatt]

pnooner still speaking softly carrying the big stick. I promise to disappear into obscurity again but doing a drive by.

Here's another of my long winded posts for old times sakes.

1992 was the last year Stitzel Weller distilled (Bulleit reopened it in '13). IMO the Stitzel juice was the magic sauce in Van Winkle. Each year over the past decade, you've had to buy progressively more aged releases of VW to get the Stitzel (10, FR, PVW 20, PVWFR23). Much of the 2013 release was stolen and I know some guys who camped out overnight with 400 people starting at 1:30 PM for a shot at a few cases of the 2014 the next day; that was the end. I suspect some "barrels lost in the rickhouse" will show up in the blend of a $1000 bottle some time - but the "real VW" is gone.

I'm not saying the bottle of 15 year old Pappy you waited in line to get is bad whiskey but personally I'd skip the line and pick something off of the shelf - not necessarily cheaper mind you.. There are plenty of good wheaters out there. You don't have to jump from MM to the White Whale of bourbon. Buffalo trace distils the Pappy now, so you aren't getting a bad product.

My choice for sometime now among all wheaters is W.L. Weller Antique 107 or Weller 12 . If you are one that thinks it's a sin to splash some water into any whiskey you might not care for the 107. Two stores in N. KY sell single barrel expressions of 107 several times a year. One of the stores even buys multiple barrels and lets you taste the difference between the bottlings. I know there are other sellers that buy casks, I think K&L is one of them. The vatted stuff is good as well though.

The developing white whale NDP bourbon is Black Maple Hill, but it's a rye. The AS bottles have tripled in price. What hurts is their regular 8-ish bottling has jumped from $20 - $35 locally. I hate when that happens.

[pnoon]

No need to disappear, Matt. Your presence and contributions are appreciated.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by OHMatt

pnooner still speaking softly carrying the big stick. I promise to disappear into obscurity again but doing a drive by.

Here's another of my long winded posts for old times sakes.

1992 was the last year Stitzel Weller distilled (Bulleit reopened it in '13). IMO the Stitzel juice was the magic sauce in Van Winkle. Each year over the past decade, you've had to buy progressively more aged releases of VW to get the Stitzel (10, FR, PVW 20, PVWFR23). Much of the 2013 release was stolen and I know some guys who camped out overnight with 400 people starting at 1:30 PM for a shot at a few cases of the 2014 the next day; that was the end. I suspect some "barrels lost in the rickhouse" will show up in the blend of a $1000 bottle some time - but the "real VW" is gone.

I'm not saying the bottle of 15 year old Pappy you waited in line to get is bad whiskey but personally I'd skip the line and pick something off of the shelf - not necessarily cheaper mind you.. There are plenty of good wheaters out there. You don't have to jump from MM to the White Whale of bourbon. Buffalo trace distils the Pappy now, so you aren't getting a bad product.

My choice for sometime now among all wheaters is W.L. Weller Antique 107 or Weller 12 . If you are one that thinks it's a sin to splash some water into any whiskey you might not care for the 107. Two stores in N. KY sell single barrel expressions of 107 several times a year. One of the stores even buys multiple barrels and lets you taste the difference between the bottlings. I know there are other sellers that buy casks, I think K&L is one of them. The vatted stuff is good as well though.

The developing white whale NDP bourbon is Black Maple Hill, but it's a rye. The AS bottles have tripled in price. What hurts is their regular 8-ish bottling has jumped from $20 - $35 locally. I hate when that happens.

I always enjoy your informative ramblings. Always good info!

I for one, will be pleased, if you stick around and ramble on, whenever your in the mood!

[Slow Triathlete]

Agreed. Great stuff OHMatt

I discovered Black Maple Hill a few years ago in NJ of all places. I lucked into three bottles of it last year ($55 each) and I have about 1/3 of my last bottle left. With the price increase on these I don't think that I'm willing to pay a high price for a bourbon that they do not even put the age on the label. With that said, it is darn good so it might depend on the price that I see it at next. However, I have heard that because of the demand this might be a once-a-year release from now on and I'm not into jockeying for stuff like that.

I was up in Tarrytown, NY last week for work and the liquor store across the street from my hotel had a bottle of Pappy for the low, low price of $1000. I asked the guy how long they have had it and he said a long time. He said that everyone asks the price and then moves on. It's good but I can buy A LOT of good bourbon for $1000.

[OHMatt]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the compliments.

"Life's been crazy" and the like keep me from posting but I'm still lurking in the smoke.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by Slow Triathlete

Agreed. Great stuff OHMatt

I discovered Black Maple Hill a few years ago in NJ of all places. I lucked into three bottles of it last year ($55 each) and I have about 1/3 of my last bottle left. With the price increase on these I don't think that I'm willing to pay a high price for a bourbon that they do not even put the age on the label. With that said, it is darn good so it might depend on the price that I see it at next. However, I have heard that because of the demand this might be a once-a-year release from now on and I'm not into jockeying for stuff like that.

I was up in Tarrytown, NY last week for work and the liquor store across the street from my hotel had a bottle of Pappy for the low, low price of $1000. I asked the guy how long they have had it and he said a long time. He said that everyone asks the price and then moves on. It's good but I can buy A LOT of good bourbon for $1000.

Totally Ridiculous!!!

I would not pay a dollar over MSRP, which is too much as it is. Hey, it's a great rye bourbon but it's not the Holy Grail. There are a lot of great rye bourbons out there!

[big pete]

I agree that OWA and Weller 12 are really good bourbons but they're getting hard to find. OWA can still be found here but Weller 12 is almost has hard to find as some of the limited releases. I've only seen Weller 12 here once in the last 1.5 years.

[OHMatt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

Totally Ridiculous!!!

I would not pay a dollar over MSRP, which is too much as it is. Hey, it's a great rye bourbon but it's not the Holy Grail. There are a lot of great rye bourbons out there!

Johnny, Van Winkles have wheat as their small grain. And the thing is, other than Maker's most people haven't tasted wheated bourbon. Many people prefer the wheated profile and find it is smoother. But when they go into a liquor store or bourbon bar and ask, "I really like Maker's but want something better." guess which name has always been provided? (Fitzgerald, Weller, Rebel Yell aren't it). People want to look cool, or at least not a novice when ordering, serving, or gifting.

Heaven Hill ingeniously introduced the wheated Larceny to fill Van Winkle void. It is Fitzgerald with a hip name and is "100 barrel small batch" (11,400 bottles). It's good bourbon, not stupid expensive. It isn't unreasonable to believe it has to be better than $10 Old Fitz Prime (which is available in a 750mL curved plastic traveller.) Annoyingly though Old Fitz 100 and Very Old Special Fitz 12 are missing from most shelves. Guess where the barrels are going.

My cousin (a DR.) took me to a bourbon bar he frequently visits since it is right up the street. He ordered a double VWFR and generously offered to buy me one. Instead of being appreciative, I had fun and loudly asked for bottom shelf Very Old Barton BiB ($14 750 retail) "over lots of crushed ice". I got looks, my intended effect. My cousin accused me of being a hipster and going for irony. I told him to taste it. He said it wasn't as good as VW and I agreed. He also asked me to buy him VOB for the second round.

More rambling, you asked for it.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by OHMatt

Johnny, Van Winkles have wheat as their small grain. And the thing is, other than Maker's most people haven't tasted wheated bourbon. Many people prefer the wheated profile and find it is smoother. But when they go into a liquor store or bourbon bar and ask, "I really like Maker's but want something better." guess which name has always been provided? (Fitzgerald, Weller, Rebel Yell aren't it). People want to look cool, or at least not a novice when ordering, serving, or gifting.

Heaven Hill ingeniously introduced the wheated Larceny to fill Van Winkle void. It is Fitzgerald with a hip name and is "100 barrel small batch" (11,400 bottles). It's good bourbon, not stupid expensive. It isn't unreasonable to believe it has to be better than $10 Old Fitz Prime (which is available in a 750mL curved plastic traveller.) Annoyingly though Old Fitz 100 and Very Old Special Fitz 12 are missing from most shelves. Guess where the barrels are going.

My cousin (a DR.) took me to a bourbon bar he frequently visits since it is right up the street. He ordered a double VWFR and generously offered to buy me one. Instead of being appreciative, I had fun and loudly asked for bottom shelf Very Old Barton BiB ($14 750 retail) "over lots of crushed ice". I got looks, my intended effect. My cousin accused me of being a hipster and going for irony. I told him to taste it. He said it wasn't as good as VW and I agreed. He also asked me to buy him VOB for the second round.

More rambling, you asked for it.

Believe it or not, I actually know that it's a Wheat Bourbon, I have no idea why I came out with Rye. I must have had a brain fart! I was so intent at commenting on the $1000 asking price that I lost it!

Other than that, are you agreeing with me, that it's no the holy grail and that there are other great Wheat Bourbons out there?

[OHMatt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

Other than that, are you agreeing with me, that it's no the holy grail and that there are other great Wheat Bourbons out there?

Absolutely. Van Winkle was special but gone unless you have a grand. Pappy now is good, not that good, not by $$ and not by the effort to obtain it.

Wheated Bourbon is a much smaller team but I like them all. Have Weller and Rebel Yell in the cabinet now. I have been on the lookout for a "missing Fitzgerald" but might have to just swallow my indignation and buy Larceny.

People will notice or already have noticed the absence of Wheaters in the market and fill it. Buyer beware.

*mounting soap box*
The straight Rye whiskey craze is a prime example of what could happen to wheated bourbon. Five years ago, you could get Rittenhose, Overholt, and Wild Turkey Rye, and another I'm forgetting. Look at how many brands of Rye Whiskey are on the shelf now. It is widely believed (and most confirmed) LDI/MGPI of Lawrencburg Indiana distills all of these:
99 Bottles Rye
Angel's Envy Rye
Big Y Rye
Bone Snapper Rye
Bulleit Rye
Cleveland Rye Whiskey
Cougar Rye
Filibuster Rye
George Dickel Rye
George Remus Rye
Henderson Rye
High Liquors Rye
Hooker's House rye
J. Green Rye
James E. Pepper 1776 Rye
Knotter Rye
LeMont Rye
Lost Rye
O.K.I. Rye
Prichard's Rye
Redemption Rye
Riverboat Rye
Rough Rider Rye
Single Track Rye
Smokin' Joe's Rye
Smooth Ambler Rye
Smuggler's Notch Rye
Templeton Rye
Widow Jane Rye
Willett Rye
Winghart's Rye

Each of these brands will have a website with a marketing pitch something like "this micro-batch craft whiskey is made from the recipe discovered by Geraldo Rivera in Al Capone's treasure vault." In the end, after endless smoke and mirrors, and litigation, even Templeton was forced to admit they are buying their juice from the massive Seagram's/LDI/MGP (or whatever they rename it) plant.
Does that mean the whiskey is bad? No. But a bottle label and $25,000 gets you 100 cases of this "micro distilled craft whiskey" for market. That $80 bottle of craft Rye whiskey might not be as good as a $16 bottle of Rittenhouse. Things can go the other way as well; Bulleit Rye will actually be distilled by Bulleit in the near future

And thus to your point, not a holy grail, diminishing returns, etc.

Go buy a bottle of Rebel and put it into a fancy decanter. Tell your friend's it's the next Pappy.

[MarkinAZ]

Stopped by BevMo to secure a bottle of Buffalo Trace after work...