Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[E.J.]

But back to that post.... So Stephen, you'd agree that this is cover-up of criminal behavior(which is actually criminal in this case) on a level when have never heard of before, within a sports program/institution....or you think this stuff is happening with irregularity within the NCAA? I think the word we'll use....unprecedented.

[jonumberone]

Originally Posted by dave

Involved? In what? The rapes and the coverups? Maybe not. But many were involved in the insane rallys/riots in support of JoePa when everyone in the country outside of Happy Valley was already either uneasy or queasy about him? Many (All?) of those you're hoping to shield from harm benefited from and/or were supported by the cover-up and lack of accountability in the institution and protection of the football program.

Penn State IS football to an awful lot of people - inside and outside that community. I would have no issue with a death penalty - or any other penalty that deprives Penn State of its football program for years.

You're right, Dave.
I can't think of any other instances where college kids organized and rioted for a cause in which they didn't have all the facts,
and made rushes in judgement based upon what their friends were doing, and word of mouth around the campus.

Let's run through some other scenarios

A coach is at home, get's drunk, and slaps his wife around.
A coach is involved in a deadly auto accident, in which he caused by speeding
A coach is arrested for DUI

Should any of these crimes cause a school to lose it's sports program? Why?

I understand that what happened is awful, and I get why people are upset, I just don't see where this is an NCAA issue.

Also, after the Cathedral, Capitol, Pyramid, institution, insert your own metaphor for power, is toppled, I don't see the point in pissing on the rubble!

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

A coach is at home, get's drunk, and slaps his wife around.
A coach is involved in a deadly auto accident, in which he caused by speeding
A coach is arrested for DUI

Should any of these crimes cause a school to lose it's sports program? Why?

Your metaphor is too far apart from what happened....

A coach is a serial killer for years and years and the administration covers it up.... Yea, the NCAA needs to do something....

Just a little confused here.. So the Penn State Football program that allowed the rape of young boys in Penn State showers didn't break any ncaa rules?

[jonumberone]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Your metaphor is too far apart from what happened....

A coach is a serial killer for years and years and the administration covers it up.... Yea, the NCAA needs to do something....

Why?
Assuming the Murders have come to light, as has the cover-up, where all involved in the crimes are being prosecuted by the law, Why does the NCAA need to do something?
If the NCAA acts who are they punishing?

To elaborate on your point.
If a Vice president of Goldman Sachs is a serial killer, and the CEO covers it up, does Goldman have to go out of business?
Should the S.E.C. get involved?
Or would the crime of murder and the cover-up be handled by the F.B.I. and the courts?

[King James]

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

Just a little confused here.. So the Penn State Football program that allowed the rape of young boys in Penn State showers didn't break any ncaa rules?

Breaking the law and breaking NCAA rules are two different things. So no, what Sandusky did, and what the university covered up, did not actually violate any NCAA rule.

If Sandusky violated NCAA rules and the university covered up those violations, then there would be a very strong case for lack of institutional control

Originally Posted by King James

Breaking the law and breaking NCAA rules are two different things. So no, what Sandusky did, and what the university covered up, did not actually violate any NCAA rule.

If Sandusky violated NCAA rules and the university covered up those violations, then there would be a very strong case for lack of institutional control

Ok I see. I don't follow any ncaa sports, so know nothing of what the ncaa is responsible for. It does makes sense to me though that if your Football program allows rape, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to play ncaa football

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

Why?
Assuming the Murders have come to light, as has the cover-up, where all involved in the crimes are being prosecuted by the law, Why does the NCAA need to do something?
If the NCAA acts who are they punishing?

To elaborate on your point.
If a Vice president of Goldman Sachs is a serial killer, and the CEO covers it up, does Goldman have to go out of business?
Should the S.E.C. get involved?
Or would the crime of murder and the cover-up be handled by the F.B.I. and the courts?

They are punishing the institution and athletic team for covering up crime within the athletic department/institution. Not only covering up crime, but committing crime at the same time. They do this to prevent dishonor to their program.

I think the NCAA needs to do something because they are who govern the institutions. The law is not going to charge the name/institution Penn State University with a crime, but IMO that name/institution let it happen, it needs to be addressed(I actually believe that will happen and again, why PSU is trying to get ahead of the curve here).

Why would the Southeastern Conference address anything with Goldman Sachs? I have to admit that I am ignorant as to the SEC and what they would do in that situation..... I cannot comment on that analogy....

Dom, are you a Penn State fan or just taking that stand?

[King James]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I think the NCAA needs to do something because they are who govern the institutions. The law is not going to charge the name/institution Penn State University with a crime, but IMO that name/institution let it happen, it needs to be addressed(I actually believe that will happen and again, why PSU is trying to get ahead of the curve here).

You better believe the law is going to charge Penn State University in civil court. They are going to get hammered in punitive damages. A university can be a party in a suit just like a company can.

And the NCAA only governs the institutions as far as the NCAA rules go.

[jjirons69]

After reading about all the stuff SMU did to get the death penalty handed to them, it seems very unlikely the NCAA will evoke it here. It seems you have to continually screw up even after you're caught once or twice.

SMU Death Pentalty

I seriously think if PS comes out and denies itself scholarships/bowls games/etc., this will please the NCAA and they will find just punishment. SMU tried it, but they were way beyond we'll go to bed without supper when they tried to right the ship. Seems everyone at SMU had a hand in the corruption and the NCAA had to clear the slate and start them over. PS's "corruption" is more localized and now cleared from the picture. PS is a MUCH bigger entity and the ramifications of the death penalty would/could also damage the NCAA's money making system (which they don't really want).

[VTDragon]

The fact that Sandusky was able to continue his reprehensible acts for years after they first came to the attention of Penn State officials indicates an institutional desire to minimize damage to the allmighty football program to the detriment of the abused children. Based upon what I hear and see coming from Happy Valley these days,(eg.: alumni donations are actually up since the scandal came to light), that attitude -the desire to minimize damage to the football program- has not changed. For this reason alone, I vote for the death penalty. I would allow all current football players to transfer to another program without penalty, but for a minimum of four years there should be no football at Penn State. Yes, lots of people will be hurt and dissapointed by this. Too bad, lots of kids had their very lives ruined by this poor excuse for a human being and until the institution that allowed it to continue suffers some real penalty there is no reason to think that almighty football won't continue to do as it pleases in Happy Valley, to the detriment of whomever gets in its' way.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

Just a little confused here.. So the Penn State Football program that allowed the rape of young boys in Penn State showers didn't break any ncaa rules?

No, technically they didn't. It's unprecedented, and there are no ncaa rules that say a football organization can't cover up child rape, or allow it, for that matter.
To me, this is kind of picking nits. On one hand, there are no ncaa rules, but to any living human being it's obvious that the spirit is there in ncaa rules under "total lack of control". Penn State has never had control of the football program, ever. Remember when they wanted to fire JoPa? (Late 80's?, early 90's?) He said no and he stayed on for lots more years. That does not remotely smell like the school had control, at least not to me. The NCAA did nothing then.

The question is really whether or not the ncaa should or needs to take action, or if it's beyond their hand, or if the law should handle it, as has already been done.
If they give the football program the death penalty, they gutshoot a major cash cow that could, if so managed, funnel a lot of money into programs for victims of violence, etc.
Penn State has already commissioned the Freeh report to the tune of over 6 million dollars to prove their guilt, and it appears they plan to do everything in their power to right this situation, not that all the money in the world can right it. (Insurance will cover victim lawsuits, but I want to see what they actually DO to make right.)
Everyone involved in this whole deal is gone, dead, in jail or headed for jail.
Dom made an excellent point, what sense is there in pissing on the rubble?

If anyone doesn't think Penn State Football has already been handed the death penalty, they're sadly mistaken. The whole school has been handed the death penalty. Paterno's legacy is shot. The entire school will carry this shame for decades. The odds of the football program ever gathering any real football talent in my lifetime is impossible. The alumni can't say where they went to school without someone looking at them with contempt, as if they had something to do with it. That's your standard "string them up" mob mentality at play. It's doing it's job persecuting the innocent as we speak, so there's solace there, vengeance is being served.

I took up for JoePa when this all came out the first go around, I truly believed he couldn't have possibly played a part in sweeping all this under the rug and that Spanier was behind it. I can remember when Spanier took the helm way back when, thinking he looked like a weasel. He turned out worse than I imagined. The fact that JoePa took part in covering for Sandusky so that his football program wouldn't suffer just absolutely makes me sick. More sad than sick, but sick nonetheless.
All the good that Joe did for so many years, all the people he loved and helped, all the devotion and time, all shot in the ass over an astronomically bad judgement call.
I've always considered how my life can change completely in a split second, the time it takes to pull a trigger. Joe pulled the trigger and changed many, many lives with this move.

Back to the NCAA and the death penalty for the football program...
Can someone explain the positive aspect of shutting down the program for me? I mean, I get the vengeance thing. Paterno's family is ruined, the campus and alum are scarred, everyone involved are locked up or will be soon. An untold number of people have already suffered as a result of these crimes, along with the victims. Where's the benefit? Who feels better? The kids who were raped? I'd think they'd want the people involved to answer for the crime perpetuated against them, not for completely unrelated people to suffer. Granted, I've not walked in their shoes, but that doesn't quite add up.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Pitchfork & torch....... What punishment have I ask for that you think is unreasonable?

Because I'm of the opinion of what you're wanting isn't/shouldn't fall under NCAA authority. Again, it isn't justice; it's vengeance you seek.

Originally Posted by E.J.

Oh.....any..... See, that is where you and I are on different sides. I think the NCAA has to do something in this situation and you feel like they should do nothing.... But pitchfork and torch.....

It's not that I feel like they should do nothing. I feel they shouldn't have the authority in the first place.

Make no mistake, what happened at Penn State turns my stomach. But this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

[King James]

Originally Posted by shilala

(Insurance will cover victim lawsuits, but I want to see what they actually DO to make right.)

It is quite likely that insurance won't cover Penn State in this case. It will come down to policy language, but it is quite likely that what they pay will be out of pocket. That is not to say that costs won't be passed on to others in the form of increased tuition, fees, etc., but I'd be surprised if the insurance companies give any $$

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by Stephen

And Godwin's Law rules the day...

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by VTDragon

The fact that Sandusky was able to continue his reprehensible acts for years after they first came to the attention of Penn State officials indicates an institutional desire to minimize damage to the allmighty football program to the detriment of the abused children. Based upon what I hear and see coming from Happy Valley these days,(eg.: alumni donations are actually up since the scandal came to light), that attitude -the desire to minimize damage to the football program- has not changed. For this reason alone, I vote for the death penalty. I would allow all current football players to transfer to another program without penalty, but for a minimum of four years there should be no football at Penn State. Yes, lots of people will be hurt and dissapointed by this. Too bad, lots of kids had their very lives ruined by this poor excuse for a human being and until the institution that allowed it to continue suffers some real penalty there is no reason to think that almighty football won't continue to do as it pleases in Happy Valley, to the detriment of whomever gets in its' way.

See, that's the unthinking, unbridled justice that's really the problem in this whole thing. You don't think those young men, who had nothing to do with this, and are set apart by YEARS from the infractions wouldn't suffer?
Did you consider that many would not even be able to play football at other schools, not be able to play this coming year, that their families could not afford such a "no penalty" move?
Who willl foot the bill for hauling all their furniture and stuff from PSU to the imaginary school they're being transferred to, provided they could even find a spot?
I'm not picking on you, brother. I just want people to think about the people we're affecting when we spout solutions like "let's just move the kids to another program".
Why in God's name should yet more people have to suffer? What exactly did these kids do that they should be punished?
What about all the men and women who make a living from that program? What about their kids? Who feeds them, and where do they go?

Here's the odd thing...
I actually agree with you, on some level. If PS Football could be erased without hundreds of innocents suffering, I'd be all over it. Just because JoePa is gone, I can't believe that 60 years of his way of thinking don't linger, and that worries the hell out of me.

[King James]

Originally Posted by Subvet642

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

I don't think there is any disagreement to how disgusting, wrong, and inexcusable the acts of Sandusky and cover-up by Penn State are. The only dispute is to where justice should be served, in the courts or by sanctions from the NCAA. I would hate for anyone to view my disagreement with the death penalty as indicating at all some kind of defense of Penn State in this situation

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Because I'm of the opinion of what you're wanting isn't/shouldn't fall under NCAA authority. Again, it isn't justice; it's vengeance you seek.

It's not that I feel like they should do nothing. I feel they shouldn't have the authority in the first place.

Make no mistake, what happened at Penn State turns my stomach. But this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

No Stephen, I don't want vengance... Truth be told, I could not care less about what happens to Penn State. If they are sanctioned by the NCAA or not, it will not change my life in the least.

I'm just stating an opinion of what I think should happen... If it does or doesn't, who cares?


Jim, I think the NCAA will do what they want in this situation, regardless if there is an actual rules violation. They are on new ground and I think will try to do what they think is appropriate....maybe that will be being satisfied with whatever PSU does to themselves.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by King James

It is quite likely that insurance won't cover Penn State in this case. It will come down to policy language, but it is quite likely that what they pay will be out of pocket. That is not to say that costs won't be passed on to others in the form of increased tuition, fees, etc., but I'd be surprised if the insurance companies give any $$

They have multiple stacked policies. That wasn't a guess, that was words from Rodney Erickson.
You're right, though. The policy cost will be passed down, and they'll pay a lot more for insurance, but they're insulated from the lawsuits completely.

[King James]

Originally Posted by shilala

They have multiple stacked policies. That wasn't a guess, that was words from Rodney Erickson.

Those policies don't have any language absolving the insurance companies from paying for intentional acts or when there was knowledge? Can you point me to where you saw that insurance will cover?