The Wine Thread

[rizzle]

Whoa...check out what I want to subject myself to.

The Aroma and Flavour of Brett Character

But what is Brett character and how and why does it appear in some wines? The wine character described as "Bretty" comes in various forms. It is the combined result of the creation of a number of compounds by the yeast Brettanomyces bruxellensis, and its close relative, Dekkera bruxulensis. The three most important known aroma active compounds are 1) 4-ethyl phenol (4-ep), which has been variously described as having the aromas of Band-aids®, antiseptic and horse stable 2) 4-ethyl guaiacol (4-eg) which has a rather pleasant aroma of smoked bacon, spice or cloves and 3) isovaleric acid which has an unpleasant smell of sweaty animals, cheese and rancidity. Other characters associated with Brett include wet dog, creosote, burnt beans, rotting vegetation, plastic and (but not exclusively caused by Brett) mouse cage aroma and vinegar

http://www.aromadictionary.com/artic...s_article.html

That just sounds nasty.

[TheRiddick]

Parker LOVES this sh#t! Openly admits to it and on top of that, teaches others they should LOVE this as well. And then people ask me why I so disagree with Parker's notes so often, his palate has been destroyed for years now and he actually gives higher scores to wines with brett (also his own admission).

Its really nasty stuff and it spreads like wildfire in the winery.

[landhoney]

Originally Posted by rizzle

Man, y'all are getting all scientific with me now. I think I'd rather buy one than put on my Thomas Dolby hat and try to innoculate it myself, especially after reading the stuff Seth wrote...that cillus and coccus stuff sounds bad.

How "not cheap" is not cheap, Greg?

And thanks for the replies guys, I know it may sound like an odd request, but I'd like to know what this stuff is I keep hearing you guys talk about.

Well its sounds bad....for wine....not beers...not some beers at least. Lacto and Pedio are mostly responsible for the sour taste in sour/wild ales (like Berliner Wessie, Lambics, Flanders Ales) which to people like myself are amongst the best beers in the world.

I have a pretty good idea of what is out there in terms of homebrew cultures, and a lot of the mixed ones out there have these bacteria in them, and if you were to use them it would affect the taste of the wine (sourness, etc) and you would not just get the pure Brett character you're looking for. But it's easy to get several individual Brett strains to use, Wyeast Lab has the following:

Brettanomyces bruxellensis
Brettanomyces lambicus

These are two different strains of Brett...and just Brett, nothing else so you could get a pure result.

[landhoney]

Originally Posted by rizzle

Whoa...check out what I want to subject myself to.



http://www.aromadictionary.com/artic...s_article.html

That just sounds nasty.

It's not all bad though, again at least in beer, the current 9th highest rated beer in the world on beeradvocate uses Brett to achieve a unique flavor profile.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Parker LOVES this sh#t! Openly admits to it and on top of that, teaches others they should LOVE this as well.

One could argue if these wines have always had Brett that it could be considered part of their terrior, no? I don't mind a little in them, it adds to complexity, but can spread and dominate very easily too.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

If by "terroir" you mean filthy wineries, then sure, its "terroir". A good friend of mine visited Pegau and was disgusted when he walked into the cellar/winery, mold, crap all over the walls and barrels. That was the last time he even contemplated buying a bottle.

We're back to the discussion we had before. If I pour bretty wine for you , will you be able to tell me the varietal? The answers, both short and long, are No and No Way in Hell. How's that "terroir" when brett in France manifests itself exactly same way brett in Mongolia does?

And how do you control how "little" brett there is? Inquiring minds want to know. You sound like you are a Parker faithful... Repeating same old Parker myths in same exact ways and sentences.
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Wine and beer brett cultivars are different animals/strains. Main reason brett in beer works and brett in wine doesn't.

Do we have a big enough following in the Wine thread to post up recent purchases? I'm always curious what bottles people are buying and why. Pics would be good too. I can post up some of my stash later.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Moses,

If by "terroir" you mean filthy wineries, then sure, its "terroir".

And how do you control how "little" brett there is? Inquiring minds want to know. You sound like you are a Parker faithful... Repeating same old Parker myths in same exact ways and sentences.

I am not a Parker faithful. I fret reading any of his vintage port reviews and he hasn't even been to the Douro. How can the biggest wine critic not visit the most grand and majestic wine region in the world? The Douro could be one of the wonders of the world.

Take a look at Niepoort. They are among the elite in port houses, yet their lodge in Gaia is so mold riddled, I couldn't stay in the cellar for 20 minutes without sneezing. If their cellar was home, it would be condemned.


Brett is perception. If you taste it, it's there, if it's really strong, then it's strong. If you drink a wine and only taste a little; maybe it's pop and pour, maybe it's cooler temp??? I don't know. Just like TCA or bottle aging; it varies person to person.

Picked up a bottle of 2007 Priest Ranch Cab and their 07 petite sirah. Both were recommended by a good friend. Anyone drink these yet?

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

Bottle aging IS personal taste and preference, many love tannic wines, many don't, any don't care either way. Not so with brett and TCA, they are physical faults and there is no such thing as "little" as they only gather strength with air contact. Ask Vinquiry and what they think of either one, they are clearly wine faults wine labs are looking for first and foremost. Half the Burgundy and Oregon Pinots are bretty and I have no idea how people even consider drinking those, I have yet to find a person who prefers rotten food (and there is no other way to explain brett for what it is). Would you eat a rotten apple? Something tells me you wouldn't.

If one doesn't smell either brett or TCA when they are clearly present in wine, then all I can say is one shouldn't rely on one's nose and palate too much.

I once tasted with a CA State wine competition judge, in a blind setting, and she simply could not pick up on a bottle so obviously bretty all 4 winemakers at the table couldn't and wouldn't even taste the wine it was so foul. And yes, she voted that bottle her Number 1 in the flight (although I am not sure if she simply did that to spite us). Best known wine blogger, also at the table, couldn't pick up on the brett as well and voted along with her, but then again he rates every bottle he tastes in the 8-10 (on 1 to 10 scale) and in his mind there are no bad bottles. Too bad that too many consumers simply follow others' recommendations without educating themselves on the subject.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

If one doesn't smell either brett or TCA when they are clearly present in wine, then all I can say is one shouldn't rely on one's nose and palate too much.

TCA is very subjective. I was at a port wine tasting with one of the most respected port wine experts in the world. He was the only one who did not notice TCA on one flight of port we had. I've heard that some can't discern TCA very easily. I can, but could hardly tell if it's oriental spice or spice box...

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Bottle aging IS personal taste and preference, many love tannic wines, many don't, any don't care either way. Not so with brett and TCA, they are physical faults and there is no such thing as "little" as they only gather strength with air contact.

That is why I mentioned pop and pouring some wines might go right beyond someone detecting either. If they were pop and pour and being judged, then those faults aren't as big.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

... I was at a port wine tasting with one of the most respected port wine experts in the world...

You're talking about Roy?

[mosesbotbol]

Here's a rarity that I am not sure I posted here. Had this in Scottsdale. Who says CA can't make good Pinot? This fooled our French guests, they thought it was a mature Burgundy just as they should think so...

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

That wine was made by Chelischev, he's really the Godfather of Cal Pinot, historically speaking. And fruit for this one was grown in Napa, no less. If you want to try some seriously good Pinot and Chard from Napa you should look for El Molino label, that's all they do and they do it well, year in and year out.

[mosesbotbol]

Sounds good. I buy a lot of Diamond Creek, so I have Cab's covered from CA. Going to take a look for El Molino. If you have any good sources, please PM.

[LasciviousXXX]

Had a bottle of '08 Amadieu Grand Roman Gigondas last night. Picked it up last week from Total Wine on special. A very tasty Rhone

[OnlyDryReds]

Other evening wive and I had a bottle of '05 reserve Pinot Noir Robert Mondovi I forgot I had in cellar....didnt think it aged bad at all

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by OnlyDryReds

Other evening wive and I had a bottle of '05 reserve Pinot Noir Robert Mondovi I forgot I had in cellar....didnt think it aged bad at all

Why shouldn't it? I have had Cali Pinot 30+ years old that was drinking fine.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

Why shouldn't it? I have had Cali Pinot 30+ years old that was drinking fine.

Because all the "professional experts" out there tell people Cal Pinot doesn't age, never mind that very few of them even drink Cal Pinot to begin with. I've had some pretty old bottles, like you said, that were simply outstanding.

'05 Cal Pinots are still young.

[OnlyDryReds]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

Why shouldn't it? I have had Cali Pinot 30+ years old that was drinking fine.

My I really didnt think a 12 dollar of Mondavi would be a good contender to lay down for a while. ( Yea I know 2005 isnt a while either )