Bulging Discs in back?

[mash]

Originally Posted by Blueface

Totally agree.
first and foremost, thanks to MRI's, they can now tell 2/3's of the world has bulging discs.
A bulging disc is not a herniated disc.
A herniated disc does not necessarily cause impingement, more known as radiculopathy.

I have two full blown herniations, with impingement, at L4-L5, L5-S1.
The L4-L5 is where half the world suffers from it.
Cervical is where the other half does.

I have been like this for 23 years.
I have good years and bad ones.
Thanks to acupuncture, I have had two great years so far.

Like a great doctor and family friend once told me an I have followed.......when you find yourself in the fetal position for a month and can't move due to pain and being drugged, consider surgery. Until then, live like 2/3's of the world with pain or find an auto accident to enrich you or let my fraud opration get you.

The point about MRI's is right. If you're over 40 years old, you have a good chance of having back pain and degenerative disc disease on MRi. Whether the MRI changes are the cause of your pain is not always clear.
The indication for surgery is nerve compression with either alteration in bowel/bladder function (surgery needs to be done urgently), or nerve compression with leg pain and motor signs (muscle weakness) that doesn't respond to non-surgical treatment. Surgery will not reliably lessen your back pain but it may help your leg symptoms. If you look at patients 3-4 years post surgery they look about the same as those that haven't had surgery, the pay off is the first couple of years post surgery.
I would be careful about the comparison to Derrick Thomas. He died because he had a spinal cord injury and was totally immobilized, he had a fatal blood clot in his lung. This likely had nothing to do with who operated on him.

[drjammer]

Originally Posted by longknocker

Have 2 Ruptured Discs @ L4-5 & L5-S1. Had 2 Epidurals 2 Weeks Apart & I'm Fine, Now, After 3 Years With No Surgery. Try The Conservative Approach First.

[Skywalker]

Sorry to hear, Travis!

I hope you find relief!

[BeerAdvocate]

Originally Posted by Blueface

P.s.
Best cure.........lose weight.
Exercise.
Do leg raises and other exercise to strengthen back.

Most folks I know post surgery are not much better than before.

I was going to see the most reknowned surgeon in South Florida. Then I learned he operated Derrick Thomas, of the KC Chiefs who I believe is no longer on Earth due to complications post surgery to repair his back.
He was operated by this same famous surgeon.

DT died in a car crash. It had nothing to do with back surgery.
The bulging disc's in my back pinch a nerve that runs down my right leg and into my foot, so I have the joy of feeling pain whenever I step.
I have looked into De.compression therapy (where they put you on a bed and stretch you) but I have heard that it doesnt solve the problem long term

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by BeerAdvocate

DT died in a car crash. It had nothing to do with back surgery.
The bulging disc's in my back pinch a nerve that runs down my right leg and into my foot, so I have the joy of feeling pain whenever I step.
I have looked into De.compression therapy (where they put you on a bed and stretch you) but I have heard that it doesnt solve the problem long term

Bulging discs don't impinge.
That is more a herniation.
I at times have felt like cutting my legs off from the impingement so I assure you I know the feeling well.

I bet the house that in most cases, nothing helps to eliminate back problems completely. You can only help relieve it.
Best long term resolution is to lose weight and strengthen the back.
Research it. You will see surgery is not the long term answer.

DT died from a blod clot from complication as result of surgery as result of a car accident while attempting to assist in resolving his paralysis.
That surgery was performed by one of the best neurosurgeons in the nation.
While his was much more extreme, the point is back surgery is serious chit, only to be considered in extreme circumstances.
Thanks to epidural blocks for years, Meds, acupuncture and exercise, no surgery for me and I assure you I have had times I could not even dress myself, or get out of bed.
I still enjoy what I would call a normal life, with some occasional discomfort.

[forgop]

Originally Posted by mash

The indication for surgery is nerve compression with either alteration in bowel/bladder function (surgery needs to be done urgently), or nerve compression with leg pain and motor signs (muscle weakness) that doesn't respond to non-surgical treatment. Surgery will not reliably lessen your back pain but it may help your leg symptoms. If you look at patients 3-4 years post surgery they look about the same as those that haven't had surgery, the pay off is the first couple of years post surgery.

I had 2 such surgeries last year. For a number of years, I had experienced some numbness/tingling in my legs and thought nothing of it as I attributed it to being overweight. I had small children and they'd step on my back to help pop it at times and if they stepped on it, it would send a sharp pain down my legs.

In Sept. 2009, I was going through a lot of stress and had a lot of tension/pain in my neck and upper back-it was to the point that I couldn't move. I went in for an MRI and they never found the source of that issue, but revealed the source of my numbness/tingling in my legs. The canal (aka vertebral foramen) my spine passes through is quite narrow compared to most people and I had bone spurs (between T10-T12) protruding into my spine and was effectively causing the numbness/tingling issue.

The first surgery was quite successful-for 2-3 months anyway. After that time, the numbness returned to my left leg from my knee down. I then had another follow up last December in which the neurosurgeon opened up some more room around my spine. It didn't seem to stop the feeling I went in for, but I at least have a little more room.

The #1 thing recommended to me by my surgeon is taking off weight to relieve the additional pressure off my spine. That's one of the best cures for a bad back.

[replicant_argent]

"Moderate L5-S1 disc degeneration with a dorasal annular fissure, chronic L5 spondylolysis and 5 mm spondylolisthesis.
5mm AP and SI cephatically extruded right foraminal herniation at L5-S1 narrowing the neural foramen and abutting the right L5 nerve root and ganglion."


In other words... yep. Looking at my solution currently as well. Pain I can deal with (ibu, Vitamin V, rum and beer, anyone?), but the movement back and forth concerns me more, because I don't want to slip on some ice and be called "Wheels" for the wrong reason for the rest of my life.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by mash

I would be careful about the comparison to Derrick Thomas. He died because he had a spinal cord injury and was totally immobilized, he had a fatal blood clot in his lung. This likely had nothing to do with who operated on him.

Call it what you want.
My understanding is it was a post op complication.
My point is it was a surgery done by one of the best in the country in dealing with paralysis and he died.
Point being surgery is serious chit and for me personally, I am proof one can have a relatively normal life with two herniations and impingement and no surgery.
Point also is any good doctor will do all conservative treatment possible for common bulges and not immediately recommend or concur with what is always the danger of invasive surgery, particularly to the spine, housing such intricate nerves.
Surgery on the back is the option of very last resort. Bulges can and do improve. As I have said, weight is key and very often overlooked and ignored as a cause and cure.

[Blueface]

Derrick Thomas

Post op blod clot as was being moved from bed to wheelchair.

Read the part where Dr. Barth Green (whom I was going to be operated by) talks about the successes and failures of surgeries.
It starts with "we do a great........."

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/10/sp...=derrickthomas

[smelvis]

I have three compressed degenerating herniated disks, I am still working extremely light duty and fewer and fewer hours. The pain is simply unbearable and without pain pills movement would be just about impossible.

Waiting for L & I to approve an occupational disease claim and did two epidurals with no help at all. Doc say surgery is all that's left to try. Work is two faced and tells me one thing and L & I another. worked for this company 19 years and continue still. You are family and we care only goes when you are a benefit to them when you start to cost them money things change. I am very disappointed and have hired an attorney.

You all saying the pain will continue even with surgery scares the crap outta me and I already am scared to death of surgery as it is. damn it.

[shilala]

I broke my lower back in an accident, had 4 screws and 2 rods installed, bone taken from my upper pelvis and used to fuse my sacrum to my pelvis, and a (multiple locale) laminectomy (bone removed from discs to make room for nerves to pass through unimpeded) done. I also have two discs blown out right below my shoulder blades. I have big leaky goomers called "Schmorl's Nodes" in a number of places, and I also have a couple endplate fractures.

My surgery helped a lot. I went from tears to hurts a lot all the time. I didn't have any expectations because I did my reading, furiously studied how backs work, surgical procedures, everything I could possibly learn and more.

All I can suggest is to listen to the docs, do your part and bust your ass to excercise and get the muscular support corrected, and try like hell NOT to ever have surgery.
Once you've crossed that bridge, you never come back.
In my case, the pain is lessened, but there are tons of things I can't do, my range of motion is shot, some days the pain is unbearable, and it's an ever-present problem that needs constant care. I literally live my live around my back, and it sucks.
Once again, it's better than it was, but the way it was, I was ready for a bullet. I insisted on every conservative measure possible for 7 months, and when I finally couldn't take another day, I was taken to surgery a couple of days after I agreed. They'd have taken me immediately, but I had to go through all the surgical preliminaries.

I wish I could pray you well, and I'll do my best, but you really have to work your ass off to try to avoid surgery. It hurts like hell every minute of every day and there's not enough drugs to kill the pain. You may be one of the lucky ones who can avoid surgery. If you can, you've done yourself a great justice, I promise.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by smelvis

I have three compressed degenerating herniated disks, I am still working extremely light duty and fewer and fewer hours. The pain is simply unbearable and without pain pills movement would be just about impossible.

Waiting for L & I to approve an occupational disease claim and did two epidurals with no help at all. Doc say surgery is all that's left to try. Work is two faced and tells me one thing and L & I another. worked for this company 19 years and continue still. You are family and we care only goes when you are a benefit to them when you start to cost them money things change. I am very disappointed and have hired an attorney.

You all saying the pain will continue even with surgery scares the crap outta me and I already am scared to death of surgery as it is. damn it.

Two epidurals?
I went three years doing multiple level epidurals (two and three levels at a time) every four to six months.
First epidural worked for six years.
After that, they didnt take all the way but I stayed with it and last one worked for about four years.
Last time, did acupuncture, which I would have previously considered quack stuff, and man did it work.
I have been good for about nearly two years now. May be a bit less than that but I do it all, with some occasional discomfort.

Here is what I truly, truly believe helped me.
Not drugs.
Not epidurals.
Not therapy which I did lots of.

Instead, two things.
Lost gut and got a Temparpedic mattress.
Every time I gain five pounds, I have to immediately lose it and so goes away the back ailments that arise.

[mash]

Originally Posted by Blueface

Call it what you want.
My understanding is it was a post op complication.
My point is it was a surgery done by one of the best in the country in dealing with paralysis and he died.
Point being surgery is serious chit and for me personally, I am proof one can have a relatively normal life with two herniations and impingement and no surgery.
Point also is any good doctor will do all conservative treatment possible for common bulges and not immediately recommend or concur with what is always the danger of invasive surgery, particularly to the spine, housing such intricate nerves.
Surgery on the back is the option of very last resort. Bulges can and do improve. As I have said, weight is key and very often overlooked and ignored as a cause and cure.

Agreed, surgery is the last resort.
I am a doctor with Worker's Compensation, and my brother is a rehab medicine doc. Both of us see back surgery failures.
My point about Derrick Thomas is this- to highlight what happened to him as a risk of back surgery is not applicable to someone who isn't immoblized. That is the biggest risk factor for pulmonary embolism.
If I cross a street, I may get hit by a car. The chances of that happening are different if I cross a side street compared to a freeway. So, to use his case as an argument about why someone shouldn't have back surgery needs to be put into context.

[smelvis]

Originally Posted by Blueface

Two epidurals?
I went three years doing multiple level epidurals (two and three levels at a time) every four to six months.
First epidural worked for six years.
After that, they didnt take all the way but I stayed with it and last one worked for about four years.
Last time, did acupuncture, which I would have previously considered quack stuff, and man did it work.
I have been good for about nearly two years now. May be a bit less than that but I do it all, with some occasional discomfort.

Here is what I truly, truly believe helped me.
Not drugs.
Not epidurals.
Not therapy which I did lots of.

Instead, two things.
Lost gut and got a Temparpedic mattress.
Every time I gain five pounds, I have to immediately lose it and so goes away the back ailments that arise.

Lost the weight already, 50 pounds, the epidurals the doc say's ruled out muscular and left me with disk, bone on bone and some nerve problems which causes the right leg pain. They gave me no relief at all none nada zip! Never had a back problem in my whole life then had right knee surgery and right into this back stuff. I am a tough guy worked with broken ribs all the usual stuff. I tell ya though this back has me in tears. I can't imagine no medicine, I tried it a couple day's a few times and I just couldn't move. Takes me a couple hours to loosen up to get ready for work I can't do any stretching or anything without the pain meds.

I am basically just supervisory right now and still little things like washing the truck at a car wash can knock me out of the game for day's. I get worse throughout the week and use weekends to recovers and that is doing almost no physical activity at all. walking forget it twice around the block and I'm on the couch for day's.

Meds may be bad but I'll take them over pain so bad I am in tears.

Thanks

PS
Sorry for thread jack but please anyone post your stuff it all helps us. You the Doc can you please speak more. Thanks Dave

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by mash

Agreed, surgery is the last resort.
I am a doctor with Worker's Compensation, and my brother is a rehab medicine doc. Both of us see back surgery failures.
My point about Derrick Thomas is this- to highlight what happened to him as a risk of back surgery is not applicable to someone who isn't immoblized. That is the biggest risk factor for pulmonary embolism.
If I cross a street, I may get hit by a car. The chances of that happening are different if I cross a side street compared to a freeway. So, to use his case as an argument about why someone shouldn't have back surgery needs to be put into context.

Well, let's see.
A doctor I am not but let's determine how bad my Derrick Thomas example truly is.

He died of a blood clot, post operative.

As a doctor, please clarify for me.
Is there a potential risk for terminal blood clots post surgeries?
Is this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought?

I believe you will have to agree there is.

If there is, and Derrick Thomas got one post surgery to attempt to repair his post traumatic paralysis, how is my analogy so far off?

[Blueface]

What irony
I post about pervassiveness of post op blood clots and death and just ran across this.
http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b241...lood_Clot.html

Dead from blood clot 24 hours post knee surgery.
Folks may remember her from that Tom Greene movie Road Trip.

Again, point is just to avoid surgery at all cost, until all else fails.
1) it may not cure you
2) it may kill you
3) it may kill you before it ever cures you

[shilala]

A word on epidurals...
I had two. The first one was in a top notch facility. It was a powdered cortisone injection (I should say injections because they worked both sides of my spine in about 20 or 30 spots and also loaded my spinal cord). Despite all the damage, it really did help a LOT. Iirc, it took about 5 days to kick in, then lasted about five weeks.
The second one was done at the hospital by the house, under old xray machines, and they had me sweating so bad they had to bring someone in to mop the floor. They constantly stopped the procedure because my blood pressure was bottoming out. When they were done, I couldn't walk and they hauled my ass to the ER, stuck a bunch of needles in me and gave me tons of muscle relaxers to break the grip.
That was my last "conservative measure". It was excruciating. My doc and my surgeon called me the next day and I agreed to surgery.

Point being, they work wonders if done properly by good doctors in good facilities. I'd not hesitate to have one done again if I thought for a minute it'd be any help.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by shilala

A word on epidurals...
I had two. The first one was in a top notch facility. It was a powdered cortisone injection (I should say injections because they worked both sides of my spine in about 20 or 30 spots and also loaded my spinal cord). Despite all the damage, it really did help a LOT. Iirc, it took about 5 days to kick in, then lasted about five weeks.
The second one was done at the hospital by the house, under old xray machines, and they had me sweating so bad they had to bring someone in to mop the floor. They constantly stopped the procedure because my blood pressure was bottoming out. When they were done, I couldn't walk and they hauled my ass to the ER, stuck a bunch of needles in me and gave me tons of muscle relaxers to break the grip.
That was my last "conservative measure". It was excruciating. My doc and my surgeon called me the next day and I agreed to surgery.

Point being, they work wonders if done properly by good doctors in good facilities. I'd not hesitate to have one done again if I thought for a minute it'd be any help.

Strictly outpatient surgical facilities for me with a good anesthesiologist.
Also, never, ever without a local and fluoroscopy.
All that said, they hit my nerve once and I almost went postal on them.

[mash]

Originally Posted by Blueface

Well, let's see.
A doctor I am not but let's determine how bad my Derrick Thomas example truly is.

He died of a blood clot, post operative.

As a doctor, please clarify for me.
Is there a potential risk for terminal blood clots post surgeries?
Is this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought?

I believe you will have to agree there is.

If there is, and Derrick Thomas got one post surgery to attempt to repair his post traumatic paralysis, how is my analogy so far off?

In answer to your questions:

No, I don't agree that "this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought". By whom?

Your analogy is very far off. Thomas had a spinal cord decompression, and then had his spinal column fixed with hardware and a bone graft from his hip. All of this time, he was totally immoblized. You are attributing his risk of pulmonary embolism to the general case where a non-paralyzed person gets a discectomy as a rationale to not have surgery. Simply wrong.
I'm with you on not having surgery unless it is the only option, this is just not a valid argument.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by mash

In answer to your questions:

No, I don't agree that "this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought". By whom?

Your analogy is very far off. Thomas had a spinal cord decompression, and then had his spinal column fixed with hardware and a bone graft from his hip. All of this time, he was totally immoblized. You are attributing his risk of pulmonary embolism to the general case where a non-paralyzed person gets a discectomy as a rationale to not have surgery. Simply wrong.
I'm with you on not having surgery unless it is the only option, this is just not a valid argument.

I respect your opinion.
I'll remain with mine.
Not the first time I have disagreed with a doctor.

As to where I got the prevalence of clots post op, tons of material on that.
In fact, it is even alluded to in the article I attached, which I candidly found post my post. I didn't type this. Someone else did.

"Nothing has been confirmed but the coroner did tell us that he thinks Mia died from a blood clot related to the knee surgery," she adds. "We are just now finding this out that this is all too common and people don't know the risks of arthroscopic surgery. They need to be made aware of the risks."

And to think this was knee surgery. Not a doctor but would bet the spine is a tad more complicated.
At least we agree on the surgery part which was my main point.
Enough about DT as far as I am concerned.
On with the thread.