Sometimes you call a spade a spade

[poker]

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

[Scottw]

Surprising enough, I gave Dan neg trader ratings and he PM'ed me offering to send me replacement sticks and "make things right" between us. I told him that I understood that he was having a rough time and that it was unneccesary for him to send more sticks. I thought this was an attempt by him to do the right thing with everyone or at least apologize. Shawn, so sorry to hear this, I would take some action though even if it is informing the authorities in his local area. That's a good amount of money right there.

[massphatness]

Originally Posted by poker

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

[St. Lou Stu]

Originally Posted by Thrak

If this was across state lines its a federal offense, especially since he used USPS to commit fraud.

$652 is alot of change to just throw your hands up and forget about... Contact your local police and see if they can help.

Not only was it across state lines, but country borders. This has gone Galactic. Notify the Federation.

Thanks for the post Shawn. Nice to see facts.

[rrplasencia]

Originally Posted by massphatness

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

i've had several transactions with a botl here, i never had any problems, he was great to deal with, i didn't know that he had some issues with a buddy of mine on the forum that was now being handled by the 11, think you eventually kept him out of wts threads, maybe if you get dinged you should be kept out of wts for a certain time, but it goes back to you have to be honest with feedback

[GoldnGT]

I'm not sure what you bought from him, but this is not any different than a situation that a friend of mine recently went through with a Supercharger purchase for his son's car at a loss of just over $1000 bucks. This is considered internet fraud and if wanted, you could press charges against him... assuming you have his legit contact information. I can talk to my friend that just went through all of this and PM you the process he went through when he went through and pressed charges against the guy for the supercharger if you want. Lemme know.

[poker]

Originally Posted by massphatness

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

I understand your point and agree Vin. I guess what I was referring to was that folks can change at any time. Life shows up and if a persons desperate enough, theres no saying what a person would or wouldn't do. A sad fact of life is that sometimes good folks go bad.

Also...
Those who have been on cigar forums for any length of time have probably already witnessed "the set-up artist". You know, a guy joins a board not unlike this one. He follows all the rules. He establishes himself as a stand up good guy. He sets up trades for good or hard to find cigars. He organizes or participates in group buys. He bombs a few key individuals. He puts not only the time in, but also spends some cash as well. He looks like 200 other great folks to the outside online world.
The problem is, its all a set up. He has placed himself exactly where he wants and planned to be. Many well respected members consider him a stand up guy. Even though the new members dont know him personally, they see other obviously well respected members do appear to know him. His audience is quite large at this point.

He has great trader references. He's been around for a while. He's actually met a few folks.
Then he lists group buys. He lists box splits he organized. He might list multiple boxes of expensive hard to find or highly desirable cigars for sale. Possibly even at multiple forums.



....and once he has your money....





...."poof". Like magic, he disappears. Just like that.


Im not saying thats Dan, but it has happened in the past by some and will be tried again by others.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by massphatness

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

I disagree with your disagreement, Vin. (Sounds a little like John Cleese, huh?)

Dan's "established pattern" suggested otherwise as well.....50 positives and not a single negative. Not until that first negative appeared would anyone who had not dealt with Dan on these last trades/splits have a clue he had become untrustworthy. JHMO.

[poker]

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history. (I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is. )

Thank you for posting your facts Shawn. Seems Hardcz's actions (or lack of) has told his side of the story and now we have yours. Only one of many from what understand. It's nice to have the ability to see both sides of an issue when making a judgement on ones integrity.

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by ahc4353

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history. (I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is. )

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

Originally Posted by pnoon

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

Thank you sir.

[poker]

For those who were taken by Dan, you can leave feedback here: (I think)

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/itrader.php?u=225


Please dont leave feedback unless you were actually involved.

[kaisersozei]

Shawn, I am sorry & outraged for all the trouble Hardcz has caused to you and other stand-up members on this board.

Like others, I have previously been reluctant to leave negative feedback. Earlier this spring, Dan & I were in a sticks-for-sticks trade that never really happened--I sent him my end of some pretty choice smokes, and despite his numerous PMs promising to "get something out right away," nothing ever materialized. I took his previous good-standing at face value and I chalked it up to "sh*t happens," and just moved on. Besides, I didn't want to be the first person to tarnish his trader reputation.

Hindsight being what it is, I wish I had used the system the way it was designed and left negative feedback. Not sure if it would have prevented any of this, but it might have raised some questions. I apologize for my omission, and commit that it won't happen again. Deals gone bad will get negative feedback.

This event and Poker's post about scammers is a perfect example of why we should use the system the way it was intended.

[GoldnGT]

Originally Posted by pnoon

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

You could always add a new usergroup called "banned" or "kicked out" or whatever you wanna name it, give it access to nothing, and that way it would still show up in the members list.

You could also install the Miserable Users addon and put him in that usergroup

[aich75013]

Wow. Sorry to hear about this.
Sometimes my wife and I watch the news and wonder how people can do the things they do.

[croatan]

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

[hotreds]

A shame and very sad. Alas, there is not much that can be done about this except after the fact- as is so often the case with crime. Thanks very much for your tempered and clear post, Shawn! I do agree that you could follow through on this- mail fraud is one option.

What is pleasing is that this is very much the exception in this fratenity and the outrage such behavior engenders.

Originally Posted by croatan

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

I have enough headaches right now.

[poker]

FYI: Even banned members are now visible in the memberlist