Pledge of Allegiance

[Bruzee]

Originally Posted by The Professor

With all due respect, I don't think it turned ugly at all. It *could* still; but it hasn't yet. Hopefully it wont....

Originally Posted by MadAl

I don't think it turned ugly at all, either. Did I misinterpret something? Did I post something unintentionally ugly?

Sorry

I got ugly when it became a religious conversation, which is not a good idea. There are too many STRONG opinions and beliefs here for this to end in a positive manner. Not to mention the mods here don't allow these to go on too long. The OP didn't start a religious thread. No apology needed MadAl.

[csbrewfisher]

Congrats to the OP's daughter!

[taltos]

I am sorry if I started anything when I stated my understanding of where one phrase came from. It was not my intent which is why I backed out of the thread.

[TanithT]

I think we can all be adult enough to share and respect each other's perspectives and opinions without it turning ugly. I would like to respectfully offer a short glimpse into perspective from a different culture, and some people may find it interesting or educational even if it is not their culture.

I am currently agnostic; I would say now that my religion is science. But I grew up Pagan. To me, the reference to someone else's strange, and to me very frightening, religious belief about a single all powerful male deity with a long history of not being particularly kind to our sort of folk made the Pledge into something I feared and rejected as a child.

That isn't really a good result if the intent of putting the Pledge into schools is to instill respect and allegiance for our nation's flag into children of all cultures and backgrounds. In retrospect, I think it would have been nice if I could have grown up being able to say the Pledge with a whole heart, without the issues caused by putting religion into it. Maybe we could offer something more positive for the next generation of kids who don't happen to come from any Judeo-Christian background, but do want to salute the flag.

[M1903A1]

I remember reciting it in class at least as late as elementary school.

Of course, out on the playground we had some different verses....

[TanithT]

Originally Posted by M1903A1

I remember reciting it in class at least as late as elementary school.

Of course, out on the playground we had some different verses....

Exactly. LOL

Seriously, the issue here is that kids are already inclined to make fun of any ritual or routine forced on them, or ignore it, or go through the motions without caring or understanding. Saying the words every morning is not going to have nearly as much effect as actually teaching them in a meaningful about respect, dignity, loyalty and pride in their country. So in a lot of ways, the Pledge itself and the words of it don't matter. The intent behind it does, and the only way to get that intent from a child is to teach it from the inside. You can't force it on them from the outside, or else they will just make it into a playground parody.

[kaisersozei]

Not entirely sure how we got to ^^this from my op, but oh well.... such is the risk & privilege of posting in a public forum.

[Genetic Defect]

Originally Posted by Bruzee

I got ugly when it became a religious conversation, which is not a good idea. There are too many STRONG opinions and beliefs here for this to end in a positive manner. Not to mention the mods here don't allow these to go on too long. The OP didn't start a religious thread. No apology needed MadAl.

I wouldn't call you ugly

[Bruzee]

Originally Posted by Big Vito

I wouldn't call you ugly

Opps... You wouldn't but I know a lot of people that would!

[LasciviousXXX]

Thanks to the OP of this thread

As a non-Christian who believes whole-heartedly in reciting the entire pledge of allegiance I thank you

[Bruzee]

Dude Dustin, nice avatar!

[TanithT]

Originally Posted by LasciviousXXX

As a non-Christian who believes whole-heartedly in reciting the entire pledge of allegiance I thank you

I respect your choice, and for myself, I feel it is more important to make a pledge of allegiance to my country that I can personally believe in than to repeat words by rote that I don't agree with.

I hope that everyone who salutes the flag, whether they are Christian, atheist, Pagan, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Native American or otherwise, can be allowed to do so in a way that is truly meaningful to them. One of the great principles our country was founded on was the separation of church and state, and I support that wholeheartedly.

[LasciviousXXX]

I'm fairly certain that the discussion we're having right now was not the OP's intent when he decided to post.

I appreciate your willingness to state your opinions and beliefs however the rules of CA prohibit threads that are inherently religious or political in nature so I'll ask you to refrain from that in the future.

Both politics and religion are very personal topics for people and inevitably there will be disagreements and possibly misunderstandings when the subjects arise. In the spirit of friendship and love of the leaf we ask that those two topics are left out of the discussion.

[detroitpha357]

Originally Posted by kaisersozei

I went to my daughter's freshmen class academic awards ceremony today (she received an academic letter for a full year's worth of A's & B's, as well as a certificate of excellence for her performance at the French Congrès. )

Congrads to your daughter as well as yourself. Please keep up the good work with your daughte. You should be very proud of yourself.

[shvictor]

Originally Posted by Bruzee

Opps... You wouldn't but I know a lot of people that would!

I'm posting this because I like it and hope others may as well. No other intent, no matter what you may think. I liked Red as a kid and still do...

Red Skelton & the Pledge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI

[TanithT]

Originally Posted by LasciviousXXX

I appreciate your willingness to state your opinions and beliefs however the rules of CA prohibit threads that are inherently religious or political in nature so I'll ask you to refrain from that in the future.

I respect the views and beliefs of others, I trust that others are willing to do the same for me, and I'm happy to leave it at that.

I guess we should take "in God we trust" off our dollar, take "God" off many of our monuments, and use one of Michael Moore's books to put our hand on to "swear to tell the truth" instead of the Bible What is happening to this great country of ours?

Originally Posted by TanithT

I respect the views and beliefs of others, I trust that others are willing to do the same for me, and I'm happy to leave it at that.

Touché!

[HK3-]

Very nice Gerard! You should be very proud.