What is a very good Espresso machine

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by germantown rob

...Can a moka pot come close to a true espresso? NO, not even close...

I was thinking more along these lines. "Once your sink two ounces of good moka, good espresso or good AeroPress under 4-10 ounces of milk that has been steamed, stretched and frothed - and then, optionally, add a teaspoon or two or sugar - it all tastes like a pretty darn good cappuccino. Different, but decent." Concur or disagree?

Good luck with microfoam. The Oscar steamer scared the snork out of me for about a week. A couple of gallons later things come together like the hot kiss at the end of a wet fist - small pitcher half full, 10-15 seconds, smooth like silk, do it with your eyes closed.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by Mister Moo

I was thinking more along these lines. "Once your sink two ounces of good moka, good espresso or good AeroPress under 4-10 ounces of milk that has been steamed, stretched and frothed - and then, optionally, add a teaspoon or two or sugar - it all tastes like a pretty darn good cappuccino. Different, but decent." Concur or disagree?

Good luck with microfoam. The Oscar steamer scared the snork out of me for about a week. A couple of gallons later things come together like the hot kiss at the end of a wet fist - small pitcher half full, 10-15 seconds, smooth like silk, do it with your eyes closed.

Now that I am not vibrating with 10 double shots I can calmly say I concur. Tomorrow morning I will fire up the 4 cupper moka you gave to me add some foam and a tid bit of the milk. To be honest I never made a cap with the moka. I really just fire up a couple of pots of the 6 cupper and pour it down my throat, the only side effect is the strange places hair grows on me.

Oscar and steam, wow, what a beast. Here is what the first few attempts of steaming 5oz of milk went like.

turn knob to flush wand, ouch, that's gonna leave a mark, turn steam off.
insert tip in pitcher, turn steam on, hold on for dear life, 6 seconds pass, ouch this is hot, drop pitcher, 175 f milk everywhere, steam from wand hitting me while trying to get pitcher, ouch as I grab the wand on the non protected metal, turn steam off. Drink double shot and try and get 2 year old to stop repeating the string of words she just heard. Start over while listening to the little angle screams profanities at the top of her lungs in the backyard. The only improvement was not dropping the pitcher the rest stayed the same till I ran out of milk. By the second gallon I wasn't burning myself at all and the hot milk didn't have skin on top. Still can't do 4 ozs but can do 6 pretty darn well and the burns have healed nicely.

[floydpink]

I still have periodic explosions from turning the steam wand on too strong and have to duck from the plastic piece or hot milk. Tricky business and messy cleanup that microfoam is, and there is no sound quite like the plastic piece shooting off into the metal pitcher and the scream that comes from hot milk in your eyes.

The main things I have learned are:

1. Keep everything perfectly clean and descale monthly.
2. Leave the fancy latte art to the barristas.
3. Practice makes perfect.
4. If you steam the milk first, then pull the shots. the milk settles down into a nice foam.
5. Keep a rag close to the operation.
6. Don't take it personally if your wife and kids laugh at you.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

1. Keep everything perfectly clean and descale monthly.

Really? Is your water that hard that you need to do this?
I choose not to use bottled water but with a brita filter that gets used only for 3 weeks before going to just drinking water my water comes down to where I should need to only descale 1 a year. A true descale cleaning is a PIA so if I had to do it 1 a month I would switch to buying softer water.

[floydpink]

Florida water.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

Florida water.

So are you just running citric acid through the water reservoir till the boiler fills, flushing till you get it through the system,then letting it sit, then flushing till clean?
or
Tricking the boiler to overfill with water and citric acid and draining the boiler after it sat hot for awhile then flushing group head and wand and guts with more citric acid?

The problem with hard water and scale build up in the boiler is the scale collects above the water line so it doesn't get removed with first procedure.

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by germantown rob

...By the second gallon I wasn't burning myself at all and the hot milk didn't have skin... ...the burns have healed nicely.

Hot cappa milk has YOUR skin on top? Keep a tube of aloe vera in the kitchen.

Oscar steam gets easy with practice. I recall removing cooked-on spatters of boiled scalded milk from the machine, floor, counter, clothes, walls, stove, eyeglasses and ceiling. With a small pitcher for one drink I maybe use half the pressure to stretch it out to microfoam over 15-seconds; to slow time down start with steel pitcher/milk chilled, direct from fridge or freezer. If you don't bother with a thermometer figure when the pitcher becomes too hot to hold barehanded you've hit about 130*F - time is getting short when you can't barehand the pitcher, right? And your nose tells the rest.

I pull an electrical lead on mine when descaling and, after soaking, pump what little crud there is out thru the wand. I have well water and a 5-mic filter - tastes great and doesn't leave much in the boiler during 1/annual descale. DO remove the tip before pumping the boiler out that way.

DO change the dispersion screen screw out with a phillips, torx or (preferably) allen drive machine screw and DEFINITELY clean the screen and brass heat sink regularly or you will have bitter/skunky espresso. Treat the dispersion screw threads with a light swipe of Vaseline before reinstalling it and only loosen it when the machine is cold. Backflush slowly/regularly with a spoonful or Urnex in the blank basket.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by Mister Moo

Hot cappa milk has YOUR skin on top? Keep a tube of aloe vera in the kitchen.

Not my skin, I don't think it was, but the skin milk gets when burned.

I have the whole aloe vera plant in my kitchen. I have a knack for burning myself so I cut some off and tape it on the burn(s) as needed.

Thanks for the info on the dispersion screen. Is not taking the screw out hot for me or is it bad for the threads?
I tried some water out of the group head after a bunch of shots where pulled and the machine had sat for a while, very nasty stuff and brown. I like to backflush after shots if I know I won't be having another for a while, it is amazing what flows out each time. How often do you backflush with detergent?

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by germantown rob

Not my skin, I don't think it was, but the skin milk gets when burned.

I have the whole aloe vera plant in my kitchen. I have a knack for burning myself so I cut some off and tape it on the burn(s) as needed.

Thanks for the info on the dispersion screen. Is not taking the screw out hot for me or is it bad for the threads?
I tried some water out of the group head after a bunch of shots where pulled and the machine had sat for a while, very nasty stuff and brown. I like to backflush after shots if I know I won't be having another for a while, it is amazing what flows out each time. How often do you backflush with detergent?

Heat and accumulated grunge will cause the dispersion screen screw to get very snug; it's easy (well, easier) to remove when cold and, if hot, it's no trick to strip the screw slot (which you totally don't want to do). Be sure to use a properly sized screwdriver that fills the slot without sloppiness or you will strip the slot; way better to replace with a phillips, torx or allen machine screw BEFORE the catastrophe.

Backflush: start with a hot machine. Add a teaspoon or so of CleanCaf, Urnex (whatever floats your boat) and some hot water to the PF with a blank basket and stir it up for a few seconds as if to dissolve some of it. Keeping the basket rim clean and level, seat it firmly in the grouphead. Take out the drip pan grate and then hit the brew button "ON" until the pump goes quiet then "OFF". Repeat the process a few times until you're satisfied the Urnex and water have worked all the way thru the solenoid and are draining into the drip pan. Let it sit for a few hours then do the ON/OFF thing a few more times until it drains clean. Remove the pf from the grouphead, wash it off and repeat without the Urnex until nothing but clean water is showing in the drip pan as you cycle the brew pump "ON" and "OFF".

Oscar note: if you run brew water and do the "portafilter wiggle" back and forth from loose to snug (to rinse grounds off) you may end up seizing the pf into the grouphead. Doing the wiggle can force water under the grouphead gasket, and, later, make it very had to free up a snugged pf without a lot of muscle. Run brew water over a pf to clean it or heat it up but don't lock- or gently snug it into the grouphead while the pump is on.

[floydpink]

Great info. I unscrew the screen regularly and clean but was warned to NEVER backflush a Gaggia, so I haven't tried.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

Great info. I unscrew the screen regularly and clean but was warned to NEVER backflush a Gaggia, so I haven't tried.

You have a baby correct? I know the new ones have a 3-way solenoid valve so you can backflush but that may something new.

[floydpink]

My Gaggia has the 3 way solenoid but they insist it will kill the pump if you backflush. Not sure, but not taking any chances.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

My Gaggia has the 3 way solenoid but they insist it will kill the pump if you backflush. Not sure, but not taking any chances.

I do remember someone asking this at CG and there gaggia saying not to backflush yet they include backflush cleaner in the new shipments. I will keep my eyes open for more info and get it to you if I find it.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

My Gaggia has the 3 way solenoid but they insist it will kill the pump if you backflush. Not sure, but not taking any chances.

This is from sweet maria's..."The 3-Way Valve: this does cost more. Do you need a 3-way valve to make perfect espresso? No! But it means the machine automatically releases high tank pressure so the "puck" is drier after extraction, and you can clean the machine by backflushing. Note that Gaggia USA does not officially support backflushing because it may splash hot water out the release valve into the drip tray. This is a legal concern - you can backflush but you do it at your own risk."

from their gaggia pagehttp://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.gaggia.php.

[floydpink]

well, if someone could explain the benefit of backflushing opposed to a good cleaning and descaling, I might try to figure it out.

I guess I am under the impression that as long as my machine is performing great, like it is, I'm leaving it alone.

Edit: Never mind, my OCD got the best of me and I just ordered a blind filter from WLL and will be backflushing.

How often is this normally done???

Last question:

I keep quite a good supply of Urnex Dezcale around. Is this the right stuff to use on a backflush??

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

well, if someone could explain the benefit of backflushing opposed to a good cleaning and descaling, I might try to figure it out.

I guess I am under the impression that as long as my machine is performing great, like it is, I'm leaving it alone.

Edit: Never mind, my OCD got the best of me and I just ordered a blind filter from WLL and will be backflushing.

How often is this normally done???

Last question:

I keep quite a good supply of Urnex Dezcale around. Is this the right stuff to use on a backflush??

After every shot some grounds and oils are staying up in your group head. The same stuff that is left behind after a shot in the cup that dries and needs a sponge to clean. I backflush after every time I am done a session, not if I am coming back in 1/2 hour but it only takes 45 minutes or less for coffee oils to go rancid and I don't want that off taste to be added to my next cup. So I will backflush 2-4 times a day with just water.

The Urnex Dezcale is not what you want to use but Urnex makes other products designed for backflushing. Not sure they are that different since I believe they all use citric acid in different proportions. Joe Glow seems to be the mildest of the detergents and I might try some of that out but right now I use Urnex tabs right now once a week, thats a lie since I have done it twice in 9 days but my second cleaning came out very clean so I jumped the gun. A shop would do it every night, a real clean freak may also do it every night but once a week will keep things clean with hot water backflushes done often.


I will post some links later on some more exact info.

I tried saving money on making home espresso before I pulled the trigger on a real set-up. Started with a 4 Cup Brikka (because I couldn't find a 2 Cup in the US) and a Zass Knee Mill. That worked out pretty good, and I was fooling myself that I was drinking espresso for a little while. Then I found a 2 Cup Brikka, which I found to be more consistent than the 4...and worked with that, again believing I was drinking true espresso.

But dammit...this interweb thing brings so much f'n information to you that the bug was still very much alive in me, and alas I began to figure out how much I was willing to spend. I budgeted $800 for a machine and grinder. I was targeting a Silvia/Rocky set-up...but as others chimed in, the little voice in the back of my head (the same one that tells me that I never have enough cigars, regardless if I have no place to store them) had me out shopping beyond my budget. Fortunately...I had my Zass Knee Mill, so I had a grinder that would keep up with the best of them (yes...that is a true statement). I didn't know anything about machines, but I had $800 to put towards one now. Gaggia was a name on the top of the list, but then I quickly learned of Expobar and heat exchange and single vs double boilers, blah, blah, blah... Long story short, I found an unused Livia 90 Semi Auto on craigslist for $800 and it got the blessing of all who had given me advise. Pair that with the Zass...and I was up and running...so I thought. Grinding espresso by hand is no joy at all...let me tell you. Especially when your first grind is typically a sink shot. I'm real big on tradition...but this wasn't doing it for me. Patience isn't a strong suit for me. I had an unexpected settlement come through at just the right time, and I sprung for a Macap M4 Stepless grinder. At the time I think I got it shipped for somewhere in the mid $500 range.
Now...I could have some fun. Getting a good grinder is probably going to be the biggest determining factor as to whether you'll continue to make (or at least try) espresso at home, or hang it up after a few months. Seriously! Don't skimp on a grinder. It really is the biggest part of the process. I can typically nail my shots with no more than one sinker (stepless is the balls).

As far as beans...I like Black Cat, Klatch's Belle Espresso (try this NOW!!!) and the stuff I pick up at Whole Foods. I'm seriously thinking of letting both of my Brikka's go since they're decoration on top of my fridge at the moment. A Brikka is the only way to really get a real decent espresso-like stovetop brew. Other moka's are good, but different.

I'm such a mental case, that I even spent the money to have Pasquini send me the stainless drip tray for the Livia. OMG what a difference it made in appearance. After all...your works have to look good when they're just sitting there right? lol



Might I suggest checking out the Coffeegeek Forum if you haven't found it already.

[floydpink]

Originally Posted by germantown rob

This is from sweet maria's..."The 3-Way Valve: this does cost more. Do you need a 3-way valve to make perfect espresso? No! But it means the machine automatically releases high tank pressure so the "puck" is drier after extraction, and you can clean the machine by backflushing. Note that Gaggia USA does not officially support backflushing because it may splash hot water out the release valve into the drip tray. This is a legal concern - you can backflush but you do it at your own risk."

from their gaggia pagehttp://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.gaggia.php.

Not to be argumentative, but I just read this and thought other Gaggia owners may find it interesting..

The New Baby does not have external tubes as your diagram suggests. the solenoid mounts to the group housing and has internal channels to the boiler and group (and below to drip). The solenoid on the new baby is easily clogged so the VERY minimal benefit that might be had from back flushing is not worthwhile in my opinion... I would prefer to run water forward through the group

[floydpink]

In any event, I ordered the blind filter and cleaner and will try backflushing.

It takes a bit of time, but I have found great benefits from taking off the shower screen and cleaning it by hand as well as sometimes taking out the two hex bolts and removing the group head, soaking it, and really giving the whole grouphead a good cleaning that I'm not sure a backflush will achieve.

I have no idea about other machines, but after studying diagrams and getting out my tools, I am beginning to get very familiar with all the inner parts of the Gaggia.

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by floydpink

In any event, I ordered the blind filter and cleaner and will try backflushing.

It takes a bit of time, but I have found great benefits from taking off the shower screen and cleaning it by hand as well as sometimes taking out the two hex bolts and removing the group head, soaking it, and really giving the whole grouphead a good cleaning that I'm not sure a backflush will achieve.

I have no idea about other machines, but after studying diagrams and getting out my tools, I am beginning to get very familiar with all the inner parts of the Gaggia.

As rancid as espresso becomes without cleaning the dispersion screen for a month or so I "imagine" the route thru the solenoid channel becomes befouled in the same short order. Once you see backflush grunge ooze into the drip pan you'll decide you don't want it in your machine.

If Gaggia has a warning, be careful; you don't want hot acidic oils squirting into your eyeball. The Oscar has a baffle in the pan the prevents a direct squirt onto a nearby human.