Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machine?

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by BigFrank

What a lot of people fail to realize is there are most likely many many more, a lot of people cannot afford to miss work and such to fight a 50-100 ticket in court. Think about it, if I got one I would just pay they are a no point ticket anyways.

Agreed that there are likely scores more that go unreported, but I was responding to the "proof" offered.

About 99% of the tickets I see disputed locally are for people who claim they definitely "stopped" prior to making a right on red. Of all the vidoes I have watched, I have yet to see even one where the person disputing the ticket actually did stop...and these obviously have absolutely nothing to do with yellow light times.

[RGD.]

Personally - I could care less on how many of them they put out there. I'm not in that much of a hurry anymore to get anywhere when I'm in town. Plus I can make it up on the interstate -

Seriously though - I say put them at every light and let the idiots fund more projects. Plus - one thing I do like about them is they cut down on the idiots blocking intersections during morning and afternoon rush hours.


Ron

[acarr]

If you have had them in your city long enough, I can hardly see any of you in favor of them that are touting them. They are calibrated by the company not the city and the company generates their revenues by the amount of tickets it issues. Conflict of interest? How about where they are in the Phoenix area, they give you one speed limit sign that drops you down 10 mph. Lets say you miss it because a big rig is in the way...too bad. These camera's are set up everywhere to trap you not to make driving safe. In between them people do 100 mph then slam on their breaks.

BTW, I have never gotten one but they are annoying as hell!!!

[borndead1]

I dislike the idea of cameras pointed at people without their consent.


It is a slippery slope. Look at England. There are up to 4.2 million CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6108496.stm

[Drazzil]

Sorry, I am going to have to call bullshit on this one. Red light cameras are nothing more then mechanical rapists with a license to take bread off of peoples tables. Objective studies done have shown that they actually INCREASE the amount of rear end colissions in an intersection.

Add to that that those cameras are actually run by corporations who take care of the matience and pictures on these things and these same corporations lobby to have the yellow light (grace period) on signals shortened so that they can rake in the dough.

The final nail in the coffin in the arguement for these things is that cities often charge MUCH more for these tickets then if you had been pulled over by a flesh and blood cop. A ticket for rolling a right on a red light is a hundred and fifty dollars in San Bernardino County, however get caught by a red light camera doing the same thing, and it will cost you five hundred dollars plus court costs and traffic school. (Which is what I had to do a little under two years ago) and there is a point on your record (if you decline or are unable or ineligable to attend traffic school)

Oh and the worst part? These things are so sensitive that they will sometimes flash you for just starting to move on a red light in the period between when the other side of the intersection is red, but your light is in the process of changing to green, and they will sometimes flash you when you are in the middle of the intersection trying to make a left in heavy traffic, and, if you are stopped, if you start too suddenly to make a right turn, AFTER you are stopped and the coast is clear... these things will sometimes flash you then as well.

Leaving you to wonder if you are going to take it up the a-s to the tune of *ANOTHER* five hundred dollar ticket for the next couple of weeks.

[shilala]

I'd situated firmly in the "I'd like to see them stick their cameras up their ass" corner.
Only because I'd like to retain the right whether I choose to be videotaped or not, public or private.
I don't even really care whether I'm videotaped or not. Doesn't matter.
Sit a cop on the corner and create a job, for crying out loud. He can sit there all day and raise his kids off the fines. That I can live with.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by Drazzil

Objective studies done have shown that they actually INCREASE the amount of rear end colissions in an intersection.

Very interested in seeing these studies, can you provide a link or website I can see them on?

Originally Posted by Drazzil

The final nail in the coffin in the arguement for these things is that cities often charge MUCH more for these tickets then if you had been pulled over by a flesh and blood cop.

Actually much cheaper here considering fees and costs, and no mark (points) on your license.

Originally Posted by Drazzil

Oh and the worst part? These things are so sensitive that they will sometimes flash you for just starting to move on a red light in the period between when the other side of the intersection is red, but your light is in the process of changing to green, and they will sometimes flash you when you are in the middle of the intersection trying to make a left in heavy traffic, and, if you are stopped, if you start too suddenly to make a right turn, AFTER you are stopped and the coast is clear... these things will sometimes flash you then as well.

Leaving you to wonder if you are going to take it up the a-s to the tune of *ANOTHER* five hundred dollar ticket for the next couple of weeks.

The cameras activating (flashing) doesn't mean you are guilty of an infraction, only that the video is rolling. If you pass the stop line before turning right on red, but still come to a compete stop, you will not get a ticket. Regarding left turns, if you were in the intersection (past the stop line) prior to the light turning red, you will not get a ticket for clearing the intersection and completing your turn after the light turns red.

As for the "your light is in the process of changing to green', isn't it red until it turns green? That would mean one was proceeding on a red light.

Not trying to be a nitpicker, David, just pointing out some of the factors (at least here in Illinois).

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by shilala

I'd situated firmly in the "I'd like to see them stick their cameras up their ass" corner.
Only because I'd like to retain the right whether I choose to be videotaped or not, public or private.
I don't even really care whether I'm videotaped or not. Doesn't matter.
Sit a cop on the corner and create a job, for crying out loud. He can sit there all day and raise his kids off the fines. That I can live with.

Cops don't get any of the fine money, Scott, they get the same salary whether they write 100 tickets or zero tickets.

Phoenix has them on the Highways set to go off at 76 MPH, to tell you the truth I love them, now the need to have ones that can count how many you have in the car so they can ticket the people that use the car pool lane with only one person in the car.

[MrsSledn]

Our city just had these put up a few weeks ago. There are signs posted stating red light camera control enforcement, about 200 feet from the traffic light. I travel through said intersection sometimes 3 or 4 times a day. And the screetching of brakes has increased very much. Our neighborhood Walgreens is at said intersection. Each time I go there, you hear someone in the intersection slamming on their brakes. Not good in this weather either. At night, those flashes from the cameras can get distracting. If you don't realize they are there and they flash, you are going to turn your head toward the flash to see where it was coming from.

But I also agree with the fact that if one obeys the traffic law, this wouldn't be a problem. I have also noticed an influx of people turning left on yellow/red lights, in turn making the others who actually have the green light, wait. This is bull.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by icehog3

Cops don't get any of the fine money, Scott, they get the same salary whether they write 100 tickets or zero tickets.

Yeah, I know. That's what pisses me off.
Get rid of the cameras and sit a cop on a lawn chair and we've created a job (paying his salary via tickets). I'd support that all day long and be happy to pay my fines.
We'll avoid doing anything like that though, cause it makes sense.

OK, Now you had a chance to mull this over...
But ponder this, before this was even talked about for tools(red light cameras) There was a news story here in Nashville about 10 years ago, about the city installing cameras at the enter section of Old Hickrory Blvd. and Gallatin Road for snapping pics of plates(they are on the back) if you ran the red light.. this got alot of press here, but were installed.
After they finished you could clearly see the cameras were not positioned to photo the car running the light ,but they shot pics of straight shots of facing cars through the windshield in the oncoming lanes and turning lanes..They were there for 1 or 2 years and then gone, shortly after a story shown here of a test program from the FED using facial recognition to "search for criminals" at intersections to see if they could use them to ID projected areas to target for searching or what not..
The cameras or gone,but not the mounts?
AND AS ALWAYS! "Respect the law"

[Da Klugs]

Safety and profit don't always coincide.

I think they are a wonderful way for cities to make $$$. The companies that sell, install and manage these things are good at "setting the stage" to ensure that the locations chosen generate the appropriate yield. Yield becomes the primary factor in choosing a location with safety being a secondary concern.

Only good thing, at least in OH is that the tickets are administrative vs criminal. (No driving record issues) It's the way they get around litigation and just get folks to pay.

That being said, in the places where the profit and safety motives actually coincide.. they are good deterrents. More typically, you see them in places just after speed limit changes or where there is significant need to make right turns where right on red is prohibited. Read a presentation from one of the companies showing a "yield curve" based upon the option of choosing the minimum to maximum yellow light period allowed by a state for a given location. It was twice as much $$$ by using the minimum. Guess which one the cities choose.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by shilala

Yeah, I know. That's what pisses me off.
Get rid of the cameras and sit a cop on a lawn chair and we've created a job (paying his salary via tickets). I'd support that all day long and be happy to pay my fines.

If I can smoke cigars in the lawn chair, I will take it for a retirement job in a warm climate.

[NCRadioMan]

They were here until they couldn't keep the money.


Charlotte, North Carolina Suspends Ticket Camera Program
Red light and speed cameras turned off in Charlotte, North Carolina in wake of court ruling.

The city of Charlotte, North Carolina yesterday suspended its red light camera and speed camera program in the wake of a May 16 state appeals court decision that ruled ninety percent of photo ticket proceeds had to be directed to the state school system, and not into the city's coffers and the pockets of a private vendor.

Charlotte had been paying Peek Traffic Inc. $35 out of every $50 red light citation to operate the cameras ($39 for speeding tickets). Under the court ruling, each ticket issued would cost the city $30-34. That is a price many North Carolina cities have already said they are unwilling to pay. Charlotte joins Greensboro, Greenville and High Point in shutting down their camera program.

Here is the ruling:

North Carolina Appeals Court Rules Against Red Light Cameras
Statewide Court of Appeals ruling could mean the end of red light cameras in North Carolina.

A ruling today by the North Carolina Court of Appeals threatens red light camera programs in the state. The decision upheld two lower court rulings that had required the city of High Point to direct 90 percent of photo ticket fines to the public school system. Today's ruling expands the precedent statewide, turning money-making programs into a money-losers for the cities involved.

High Point had argued that the Article IX, section 7 of the state constitution did not apply to red light camera tickets because they imposed a "penalty" not a "fine." Judge J. Douglas McCullough swept aside the word games, writing for the court, "the fact that the violation results in a civil penalty rather than a fine for an infraction is irrelevant if we are to observe the Supreme Court's admonition to consider 'the nature of the offense committed, and not in the method employed by the municipality to collect fines for commission of the offense.

[Da Klugs]

Love to see someone do a little research on when they decided to install them and quote the "safety justification".

It's all about the companies that sell and administer the actual determination to ticket as a service and their ability to sell the cities on this as a revenue producer.

Absent the revenue no one talks about safety.

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

They were here until they couldn't keep the money.


Charlotte, North Carolina Suspends Ticket Camera Program
Red light and speed cameras turned off in Charlotte, North Carolina in wake of court ruling.

The city of Charlotte, North Carolina yesterday suspended its red light camera and speed camera program in the wake of a May 16 state appeals court decision that ruled ninety percent of photo ticket proceeds had to be directed to the state school system, and not into the city's coffers and the pockets of a private vendor.

Charlotte had been paying Peek Traffic Inc. $35 out of every $50 red light citation to operate the cameras ($39 for speeding tickets). Under the court ruling, each ticket issued would cost the city $30-34. That is a price many North Carolina cities have already said they are unwilling to pay. Charlotte joins Greensboro, Greenville and High Point in shutting down their camera program.

Here is the ruling:

North Carolina Appeals Court Rules Against Red Light Cameras
Statewide Court of Appeals ruling could mean the end of red light cameras in North Carolina.

A ruling today by the North Carolina Court of Appeals threatens red light camera programs in the state. The decision upheld two lower court rulings that had required the city of High Point to direct 90 percent of photo ticket fines to the public school system. Today's ruling expands the precedent statewide, turning money-making programs into a money-losers for the cities involved.

High Point had argued that the Article IX, section 7 of the state constitution did not apply to red light camera tickets because they imposed a "penalty" not a "fine." Judge J. Douglas McCullough swept aside the word games, writing for the court, "the fact that the violation results in a civil penalty rather than a fine for an infraction is irrelevant if we are to observe the Supreme Court's admonition to consider 'the nature of the offense committed, and not in the method employed by the municipality to collect fines for commission of the offense.

UPDATE! They installed 4 cameras at 4 lights in Clarksville 1 month ago, and in one month, they photo'd a total of $20000.00 in fines.. It is on tv news here as the news pulled the FOIA on the city and got the totals

I know this is about Red Light cameras, but what about the speed cameras? especially those in construction zones? I know places that were considering them in construction zones. It would cause people to get tickets if there were speeding through construction zones regardless of time of day. For example, if there is no one working at 11PM on a Sunday, why is the speed decreased? Those fines are double due to the construction zone alone. For those of us in climates with snow, the construction on major highways is year round, every year.

[ActionAndy]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Speed limits are capricious. I have been on the same highway when it was 55 as when it was 75. What was the difference? Same piece of asphalt. Politics. Should we be basing speed limits on politics? Not a big fan of idiot politicians myself. I consider a speeding ticket for going 81 on an interstate to be theft, pure and simple.

Quoted for TRUTH.

[WildBlueSooner]

I have heard you can get out of these tickets if they come from cameras. In court ask to examine the accuser...