The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by sboyajian

Most wines (like most beers, like most scotches, like most everything) are grown in the field, then made in a factory and then run through a lab.

I am not sure I understand "... then run through lab" point you made. I know of no one who runs their wines "through lab", I am talking fine wines of course and save for verifying alcohol, acidity and dryness numbers there is no "lab work" involved.

Get some info before making a statement. Talk to Australians themselves, while they were happy with grabbing a big chunk of the USA market when the likes of "Yellow Tail" appeared (and were imitated by everyone else making same, chemical driven plonk that may not even be grapes in some cases), they are now crying because not only did these "chemical experiments" kill the market for locals (USA producers), but also greatly reduced the market for the middle and high end Oz producers as well. So far, Oz imports are down and going down as we speak, people can be fooled some of the time, but not always and consumers are finally waking up.

Fine Syrah market is dead in USA because of the "animal" labels, do some research to see why.

Do you buy and smoke Cremosas? Just curuious.
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Moses, that ram on Mouton is an art form and a one time deal, you know that :-) But yes, I'll take 2BC over ANY "animal label" save that ram on Mouton :-)

[SeanGAR]

Most of the upscale Aussie syrahs I have had in the last 5-7 years were over ripe, jammy, high alcohol, and unpleasant. Big fruit perhaps, but out of balance and undrinkable after a half a glass. Made to show "big" in a comparison tasting, not to be a nice wine with a meal.

What chemicals are you referring to when you say 'chemical driven plonk'. Sulfur is a chemical. Flavor compounds extracted from oak barrels are chemicals. Wine is nothing but a bunch of chemicals in a glass that can taste good or not, depending more on a person's personal preference than anything. I dislike the super ripe walla walla/HHH wines, but some people really like them. Who is right?

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Most of the upscale Aussie syrahs I have had in the last 5-7 years were over ripe, jammy, high alcohol, and unpleasant. Big fruit perhaps, but out of balance and undrinkable after a half a glass. Made to show "big" in a comparison tasting, not to be a nice wine with a meal.

What did you drink?

Did you have Mt. Langhi Ghiran? d'Arenberg, Parker Station, Torbreck, 3 Rivers, Run Rig, E&E, Cimicky? And what were your impressions?

With Oz Shiraz, you need to pick and choose carefully. That same Mt. Langhi Ghiran needs at least 5-7 years to get going and is a very balanced wine once there. 1995-1997 d'Arenberg Dead Arm are legendary and pretty much killed any and all competition in all blind tastings I have done (WITH FOOD). Cimicky are still undervalued as they were 10-12 years ago (as is Mt. Langhi, IMO).

If you really want to try some small Oz labels there is a shop in SF I can hook you up with, the buyer there knows Oz and NZ wines like no one else in USA and has an incredible selection in the back room. That was my learning grounds years ago :-) Before I worked in wine retail and sold a number of these myself.

In general terms, I won't touch any Oz Shiraz these days that sells under $25 a bottle, sounds elitist, but that's reality if you want anything drinkable.

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

I am not sure I understand "... then run through lab" point you made. I know of no one who runs their wines "through lab", I am talking fine wines of course and save for verifying alcohol, acidity and dryness numbers there is no "lab work" involved.

Get some info before making a statement. Talk to Australians themselves, while they were happy with grabbing a big chunk of the USA market when the likes of "Yellow Tail" appeared (and were imitated by everyone else making same, chemical driven plonk that may not even be grapes in some cases), they are now crying because not only did these "chemical experiments" kill the market for locals (USA producers), but also greatly reduced the market for the middle and high end Oz producers as well. So far, Oz imports are down and going down as we speak, people can be fooled some of the time, but not always and consumers are finally waking up.

Fine Syrah market is dead in USA because of the "animal" labels, do some research to see why.

Do you buy and smoke Cremosas? Just curuious.
.
.
.
.
.
Moses, that ram on Mouton is an art form and a one time deal, you know that :-) But yes, I'll take 2BC over ANY "animal label" save that ram on Mouton :-)

That is actually exactly what I was referring to.. hopefully you don't think that I felt all winemakers bring the wine in, and if it's not "up to snuff" they start adding extra chemicals and ingredients to change it somehow.

I have drank Yellow Tail, many people buy it because of it's "budget" cost.. I don't know that I have ever finished a glass outside of just being "courteous" and certainly have never gone back for a 2nd glass.

Tall Horse, at least to me, does not have that same affect. I wouldn't classify a wine bad or gimmicky simply because it has an Animal on the label.

Should I steer away from Grey Goose Vodka? Should I stay away from Glenfiddich because it has an animal on it's label? With all due respect, while the the argument could be made that some wines like Yellowtail are pushing better wines out of the market because sales swing to the cheaper brand, calling all "Animal" brands bad, is just in poor taste. Can't make an assessment without actually trying the brand.

As you said yourself.. "Get some info before making a statement" ... unless you have tried all of those brands, and know exactly the process each one goes from vineyard to shelf, you can't make that kind of blanket statement.

As for Cremosas.. never had one. I typically smoke Padron's (yes, even the Londres and x000 series), Fuente (even a curly head from time to time), Tatuaje, and Pepin. That being said, I'd welcome the opportunity to try a Cremosa before I chalked it up to a crap cigar not worth my time.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by sboyajian

Should I steer away from Grey Goose Vodka? Should I stay away from Glenfiddich because it has an animal on it's label? With all due respect, while the the argument could be made that some wines like Yellowtail are pushing better wines out of the market because sales swing to the cheaper brand, calling all "Animal" brands bad, is just in poor taste. Can't make an assessment without actually trying the brand.

As you said yourself.. "Get some info before making a statement" ... unless you have tried all of those brands, and know exactly the process each one goes from vineyard to shelf, you can't make that kind of blanket statement.

We were talking WINE, right? What are Grey Goose and Glenfiddich?

Cheaper and "bad" are two different things, very much so in this discussion, IMO. Cheaper are the wines I listed above, there is whole bunch. "Bad" are wines I won't buy or even drink if offered for free, I only have one liver and no spares. And yes, being an industry insider, I do try a fair amount of wines, thus I only discuss wines I KNOW personally and well, I know a seriously good number of them whether I like them or not.

On the third point, the info is available, I do read up a fair amount on a daily basis, its MY JOB. I make wine for a living. And when I say these "animal labels" are chemical experiments, they are, just stock up on wine industry periodicals and light up a few cigars while you read up.

I am not here to tell people what to drink, I am simply pointing out that there are affordable wines worth seeking out and drinking. Same way you and I avoid certain cigars and brands, wines are also to be either followed or ignored.

And as I said already, it is strange that people don't bat an eye at spending a nice chunk on good cigars, or Scotch/Cognac/etc, yet "save" by buying inferior wines when much better wines are available at roughly same prices.

Anyway, I see we're talking apples and oranges, if "animal labels" suite your palate, in general terms, no issue here, your liver and your wallet.m I'll go pop a beer now...

Bogle, Sebastiani, J. Lohr, Meridian, Vouvray, German Reisling, CdR, Chilean and Argentine, all can be had in the $5-15 range.