College Hoops Thread 2011-2012

[SD Beerman]

Wait until next year......


great games today......lovin it!

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by mase

Down goes Duke! Down goes Duke!

Like I said earlier; Dookie = Overrated (at least this year)

Originally Posted by Col. Kurtz

Bet that just screwed up EVERYBODY'S brackets...

Eh, I had them losing to Xavier, so I'm not hurt too bad by it. The Mizzou loss though...

[Stephen]

How's everyone's brackets looking so far? Mine isn't in the best shape, but still have a chance to make a nice run. Only missing two Sweet 16 teams (picked Davidson & Michigan) and a Final 4 team (Missouri).

[kelmac07]

Originally Posted by Stephen

How's everyone's brackets looking so far? Mine isn't in the best shape, but still have a chance to make a nice run. Only missing two Sweet 16 teams (picked Davidson & Michigan) and a Final 4 team (Missouri).

23 of 32 picks correct...

[jledou]

Duke and the Zoo go down ... KU had better pay attention here....

[The Poet]

Hey, I stopped doing brackets years ago. Why do you think they call it Madness?

I'll be back a little later to talk about a common statement that has bothered me for years, and came home to roost big-time yesterday. I bet you can't wait for that.

[The Poet]

If nothing else, it was an interesting day of hoops on Friday, as tons of people had their brackets totally torn apart. Not only did Mizzou and Dook go down, but the Ohio Bobcats knocked Michigan, co-champs of the Big Ten regular season, out of The Dance, while South Florida bulled the Temple Owls out, thus depriving many of one Cinderella pick. But the Tiger and Blue Devil losses in particular point out something that has bothered me for years, and that being the bold statement:


Guards win you championships.


Now, I am not about to denigrate the importance of quality guard play, and the statement is not a total fallacy. Yet I find it a misconception, or at least a flawed perception, for if you don't have some horses down low you are unlikely to survive. Mizzou came into the game touted for their unusual 3-guard offense, which was said to make them difficult to defend. True as that is, it only goes so far. If you've been reading this thread all along, you know how many times I have stated that the Tigers may be good, but they were not as great as the perception of their fans, and even of too many "experts". As for Duke, you can lament that they badly missed injured Kelly, but one thing they missed from this 6'10" player was his outside range, which was hard to defend and which opened up the lane for teammates by stretching the opponent's D. That's well and good, as far as it goes, but a big man is of more value in the paint! Me, I've never been overly impressed with the Plumlees, but last night they were the most effective option Dook had, and those guards did not do enough to get them the damn ball! Even the analysts said that they needed to play inside-out, not outside-in, and that was not only big man Charles Barkley but PG Kenny Smith too. Jet may have feigned backhanding the Round Mound when he spouted the old saw about dying by the three, but he also knows it is the truth.

As I said, good guard play is important. But the most important part of it is not the scoring, but the handling of the ball and the getting of it to the other guys in the right place at the right time. Yesterday Tyler Zeller got his double-double points and rebounds (17&15) in good part because Kendall Marshall did his job. Marshall's 11 points (on 5 for 7 shooting, not the 5 for 20 we saw from some other guards yesterday) was just icing on his 10 assists.

This idea of guards ruling the NCAAs may be sexy, but it does not hold up under tight scrutiny. Every year CBS opens up their pregame with the Michael Jordan shot which gave UNC the lead over Georgetown back in 1982. But nobody seems to talk about James Worthy getting 26 points in that game, nor the fact that the story going in was that Sam Perkins of Carolina could not handle the Hoyas' freshman man-child Patrick Ewing. And speaking of Ewing, it is true he won only one ring, but he did get to 3 championship games. Is that too old a reference for you? Well, let's go back to the last time the undisputed best team in the nation won it all, that being the Tar Heels in 2009. I was proud of the way I was able to handicap all those games, but particularly proud of the way I parsed perhaps the most interesting match-up of that run . . . UNC against upset-minded Oklahoma. Going into it, the experts were saying that Blake Griffin would eat Tyler Hansbrough for lunch, as he was much the superior athlete. I could not dispute the possibility, and agonized over the keys to that contest for a Heel victory to ensue. Finally, I asked myself two questions: "Could Blake have a monster game, yet Oklahoma still lose?" Yes, I decided. "Did Carolina need Tyler to have a monster game to win?" No, I also decided. From that point, I was not worried. If you recall, Blake did have a huge game, while Tyler got only (if I rememeber correctly) only 8 points. The Heels won that game from the outside, with scoring from guys like Ty Lawson, Wayne Ellington, and Danny Green. On the surface, this seems to dispute the point I'm trying to make. Yet look at it more closely. Coming into that game, the Sooners knew they had no shot at all without Blake Griffin on the court, and they also knew that Hansbrough was perhaps the best man ever at drawing fouls. So they double-teamed him throughout the game in order to deny him the ball (and thus protect Blake), and triple-teamed him when he did get touches. The result of this was that it left those outside jumpshooters for UNC open looks at good shots, and they took full advantage. But nobody, NOBODY!, seemed to take note of that, despite the fact that, as I had predicted, it was the key to the game.

Bottom line, I am surprised that Duke and Missouri got beaten by Lehigh and Norfolk State respectively. However, I am NOT surprised that they did not make it far in the NCAA Tournament this year. For every Tyus Edney, Bryce Drew, or Stephan Curry hero in the history of the NCAAs, there are 10 or 12 chuckers or fumblers or ballhogs who shoot their teammates in the foot.

I'm off my soapbox now. Let's do some hoops.

[The Poet]

It looks like the Orange will survive at least one more round, as they are up double-digits on K-State with about 2 minutes left.

[The Poet]

Final:


Syracuse 75 - Kansas State 59 = The Orange do advance, and with more ease than with their war with UNC-A. Maybe they got focused, maybe they got accustomed to playing without Fab Melo, and maybe they can lve up to their 1-seed . . . though I figure the winner of the Vandy/Wisc game will give them a lot to handle. As for K-State, they had a better season than was expected, which might keep Frank Martin from going postal . . . and may not. But this one wonders: With this loss, and with Texas and Missouri dropping out early, plus with Baylor struggling with South Dakota State. was the Big 12 again a one-league team, the Jayhawks and everybody else? OK, Iowa State did take care of U Conn, but I'm not sure how much that is worth. We'll know better today, when the Cyclones face Kentucky, and Baylor takes on Pac-12 champ Colorado . . . though maybe not so much in that 2nd one.


Other games today:


Ohio State vs. Gonzaga = There is no doubt which one has the most talent. But if Sully does not shake off his sophomore slump and bring it today, the Buckeyes' dependence upon Buford and Kraft to survive may get them into trouble with the 'Zags. I think they can overcome a poor offensive game by Sully, as long as he defends and rebounds, but without that this could get scary.

Murray State vs. Marquette = And this one is scary from the get-go, for both teams. Joe's Racers may be outclassed by the Marq-uee opponent, especially off the glass. But on the other hand, I doubt if Marquette knows a ton about Murray State, and may be looking past their 1-loss season as being merely a product of the lower-level competition they faced in the OVC. True as that may be, it does not mean the Racers cannot hoop, nor does it mean the Golden Eagles can't be beaten by a lower-seed . . . as Mizzou and Dook found out.

Vanderbilt vs. Wisconsin = To me this is one of the more interesting match-ups of the day. Both teams have some quality bigs, both want to control tempo, and both want a shot at what they think is a vulnerable Syracuse team. I expect a war here.

VCU vs. Indiana = Yeah, I know what VCU did last year, and yeah I know I was pumping their league all year as one of the better and underrated mid-majors in the nation. But despite the weaknesses the Hoosiers can show from the perimeter players at times, they play tough-nosed D, and the have the difficult-to-defend Cody Zeller in the paint. I see no miracle run for VCU this year.

Iowa State vs. Kentucky = The Cyclones have faced, and defeated at times, some quality teams all year, but they have not faced a team like the Wildcats. If UK plays like they did in their opener, this could get ugly. Iowa State's only chance is to control the pace, get inside either on drives or good post passing, and get those 'Cat bigs into some foul trouble. You can rattle a young team like UK, even if they are no longer really freshmen and sophomores, and rattled kids will make mistakes. Me, I would not bet on it, but it could happen.

Colorado vs. Baylor = And me, I don't like either one of these teams. I was surprised that the Buffaloes won their opener over UNLV, based upon the lousy play I saw from them in the Pac-12 championship game, which was unwatchable. As for the Bears, they have several good players, and nearly no team chemistry whatsoever. Why don't both of them go ahead and lose this one, so then we don't have to see them anymore?

New Mexico vs. Louisville = This is a tough one. The Lobos have had some very good wins, and have a good young coach to boot. The Cardinals have a "storied" (to be kind) coach of their own, and have had some terrible losses this year. They are like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates . . . you never know what you're gonna get. I'm leaning towards New Mexico here, but only because I'm not sure how much longer Louisville can continue to play well . . . their string may have run out.


If I get a chance to get back, I'll deal a bit with Sunday games, though all I really care about is if my Heels can get past Creighton, with or without John Henson. Until whenever then, enjoy.

[jcruse64]

Love your point about guard play vs viable post play/ers. This, in fact, was key to the Racer's loss today. The Racer guard corp was able to do some work, but overall, did not score enough to win the game, in spite of the EXCELLENT defensive work they did. Their 2 main big men are less than 6' 9", and were smaller than Marquette's big guys, and in the last 3 minutes, it was all the difference. Aska got inside looks, and almost never converted or rebounded his misses. Daniels was decently effective on offense, but got wore down by the battle and Marquette's big guys still had legs to make shots and rebounds. Daniels, again, was a beast on defense and quick opportunities, but at the end, was too tired to keep it up. I hope Murray has a big guy in wating (and we might. In fact, the one we do have can score and D, but needs more lbs next season).

So.. My wife and I are still here in the recliners, cleaning up our kleenexes. Murray was in the game till the last 2 minutes, but Marquettes size and strength gave them the legs to hang on 2 more minutes and preserve the lead. Great, tough game, with lots of lead changes throughout. My thanks to UK fans who bought up all the tickets, and then didn't go to this one, so the rest of us rooting for an in-state team could not go and show OUR support . It was truly a fantastic season for the Racers, and I can't wait for next season. Be interesting to see if Caanan tries to leave early, or if Prohme gets an offer he can't refuse.

'Cuse wins, and shot that side of the bracket for me. Very surprised, to be honest.

UK is up about 20 on Iowa State, with less than 2m to go. Haven't watched it really. Just came in from smoking a Tat black PC on the back porch, and thinking about how great it would have been to have gotten to fly to Arizona to watch the Racers...

UL and New Mexico are in a close game, early in H1.

Vandy goes down to Wisconsin, which was no surprise.

Another mid major also bit the dust, with VCU falling to IU in a very close, hard fought game. Really enjoy watching Shaka's teams. THE OSU beats the 'Zags as well.

[elderboy02]

My 2 favorite teams are in the Sweet 16 (Cincinnati and Ohio State) and they are playing each other on Thursday.

I am definitely rooting for the Cincinnati Bearcats!

[The Poet]

Joe, I feel your pain. Remember, as a Tar Heel, I've seen more than my share of hearbreaking losses in the NCAAs myself. Just do what I do and congratulate yourself and your team for having an outstanding season, and move on.

My point about guards may or may not be all that valid, but it may have brought me some bad karma. Kendall Marshall broke a bone in his wrist yeaterday against Creighton. He had a screw put into it today, and is "unlikely" for the game Friday. True, Carolina has enough other talent to have reasonable faith that they should . . . SHOULD! . . . be able to handle the Ohio Bobcats. Hell, they probably have enough to give the Charlotte Bobcats a decent game. Still, it is a hit for their possible future down the line, even if he comes back at, what we'd assume, is less than 100%.

And Dan, as for your Cincy/OSU match-up, you sure can pick 'em. Both of those teams can play very well, and both can come out and absolutely stink up the joint. Should be interesting.

[jcruse64]

Kudos on the Ohio teams making the Sweet 16!!!!! Wish there were 2 KY teams there with ya. The Racers are looking forward already to the 2012/13 season, and getting past the Sweet 16; love that attitude!!!

Very interested to see Ohio and Cincy match up. Looks like Cincy is still drawing ire as a "thug" team from the internet chatter. I'm glad to see Cronin have success in the bigger program, after leaving the Racers, and appreciate his time here. Also see another Racer coaching alum having success, as Gottfried's team gets a Sweet 16 spot.

Poet, I'm definitely no Tarheel fan, but I hate to see any kid go down, especially at this time. Kids play hard all year long, and making it here, deserve to get to enjoy playing in the Dance. I hope he can somehow get in to play. If the Tarheels make it to play UK, I want to see the very best of your team going after the very best of the team I root for, win or lose. No jinx there, it's just an unfortunate reality of good, all-out play sometimes.

One thing about this tourney I heard brought up on Evan and Phillips this morning: the last game ended well after midnight Eastern Time. That is WAY too late to have these games going, both for the players AND me!!!

[The Poet]

So, lemme get this straight . . . the internet is a-chatter with Cincy being a thug, as they prepare to go up against Big Ten opponent Ohio State? Have those guys ever watched a basketball game?

It's beginning to look like this year's UNC team has become as snake-bit as their 1977 one. That year they lost to injuries Tommy LaGarde, Walter Davis, and Phil Ford . . . who did manage to play in the tournament, but was not nearly as effective. This year's team lost guard Leslie McDonald before the season, Dexter Strickland in January, lost John Henson for a few games, and now will have, at best, a one-handed point guard in Kendall Marshall. On the bright side, the 1977 team went on to the championship game before losing to Marquette. Also, this year's final is in New Orleans, where Dean Smith won both his banners. And, perhaps best news of all, when Dean lost that '77 final to Al McGuire, Al celebrated by announcing his retirement. Perhaps if we can somehow make it to the championship and lose to Kentucky, John Calipari will do us all the same favor.

[DaBear]

All I'm gonna say is Carolina better win on Friday. I want another crack at em, this time with no ACC refs to be ACC refs.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by DaBear

All I'm gonna say is Carolina better win on Friday. I want another crack at em, this time with no ACC refs to be ACC refs.

Well, while you're looking past Kansas, I'll concern myself with getting past Ohio.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by DaBear

All I'm gonna say is Carolina better win on Friday. I want another crack at em, this time with no ACC refs to be ACC refs.

Well, it wasn't easy, but we got there. So where the hell are you?


I just could not resist that one, Bear. Your Wolfpack had an unexpectedly good season, and managed to a) win 2 ACC tourney games, b) win 2 NCAA tourney games, and c) push the #2-seed Kansas to the brink of elimination. There's no shame, no blame, and plenty of positives there.

Back in a bit with the update.

[The Poet]

Oh, Bear, BTW . . . though I've said I don't care about Vegas oddsmakers, I did a check anyway. My Heels are still a 10 1/2-point favorite over the Ohio Bobcats, even without Marshall projected to play. On the other side of the bracket, your 'Pack is an 8-point 'dog against the Jayhawks.

That may mean jack, and I reaffirm I do not pay attention to it at all. Yet I also reaffirm you need to play them one at a time.

[DaBear]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Oh, Bear, BTW . . . though I've said I don't care about Vegas oddsmakers, I did a check anyway. My Heels are still a 10 1/2-point favorite over the Ohio Bobcats, even without Marshall projected to play. On the other side of the bracket, your 'Pack is an 8-point 'dog against the Jayhawks.

That may mean jack, and I reaffirm I do not pay attention to it at all. Yet I also reaffirm you need to play them one at a time.

Well we managed to beat a team I had in the championship game in my bracket, so I'm feelin good about the matchup. Just hope the team doesn't cool off before the game, we were on fire in the Georgetown game.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by DaBear

Well we managed to beat a team I had in the championship game in my bracket, so I'm feelin good about the matchup. Just hope the team doesn't cool off before the game, we were on fire in the Georgetown game.

Brother, that may mean you have a Final Four team coming out of Raleigh . . . or it may just mean you're lousy at filling out a bracket.


To be serious, take note that Georgetown is historically a defense-first team who often struggles at the offensive end of the court. As for this particular team, they were not expected to compete in the Big East this season due to their youth, and overachieved, much to the delight of Hoya fans. And your "on fire" Wolfpack won the game by a 66-63 margin . . . although, to be fair, the margin may have been a bit larger had they been able to hit a few foul shots, as opposed to handing Georgetown every opportunity to take the game away from you late.

Hey, I wish you all the luck in the world against Kansas, don't get me wrong. I'm just advising you that it is ill-advised to start frying up your chickens before they even hatch.