Interaction of temp and rh

[BigCat]

Well I thought I could find an answer with the search function, but wasn't able to do so. I have a cooler sitting in a closet on my lower level where the temp stays around 56-58 degrees this time of year. The humidity is a rock solid 65%. I had read somewhere that with a lowered temperature, the rh needs to rise - that I should theoretically raise my humidity to compensate for the lower temp. Is this true? Am I risking harm to the sticks in my cooler if I let them stay in the current environment until things get warmer here? I can always bring them upstairs where it is warmer if need be - I'd just prefer not to.

[E.J.]

Interested to hear the answer....as I am 57-58F and 63%.....

[Col. Kurtz]

My understanding is that cool air doesn't hold as much moisture as warm air. If you have 65%, sounds like you're good to go.

I have mine stored in a heated play room in the back yard. I keep the heat on 55 when no one is going to be in there. I have more trouble keeping stable due to the low humidity (and heat pump) this time of year.

Just my opinion...

[neoflex]

Ive always noticed that when the temp drops so does my rh but if the temps than rise the rh follows it so during the day when I have the heat kicked down low and the rh drops with the temp of my cabinet I usually don't stress because as soon as the temperature rises the rh follows it so if I compensated for the low rh it would be too high when the heat kicked on. Not sure if it's posted here or if it was the other place but there was a chart that showed how rh was relative to temp and where you should be for certain temps.If yours is at 65% solid I would not sweat it as that is an ideal rh. If you feel really nervous just pop the lid from time to time and pull out a stick and give it a slight squeeze to see if your smokes are starting to feel dry. I've learned not to stress to much about it. My biggest complaint about this time of year is how often I need to re-charge my beads and refill the Oasis but to be honest I much rather that than having to run the AC all day long at 67-68 even when no one is home in the summers. I fear the heat more than I worry about my humidity. Keeping the rh where it needs to be is a walk in the park compared to dealing with high summer temps and making sure I am keeping the house cool enough to keep my cigars cool. One of thee days I will go the Vino route and put all my worries behind me.

[shilala]

Relative Humidity is relative to the temperature. That's why it's called relative humidity.
The actual difference of volume of water in a cooler at 55 degrees and a cooler at 75 degrees both at 65% is so tiny it's negligible, and literally not worth mentioning.
You have absolutely nothing to worry about, Colin. You should be overjoyed. You done good.

[BigCat]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. Your input is helpful and I feel better about it now.

Neo - that chart you referenced is what raised a concern for me. I know I've seen it before somewhere else, but can't recall where.

Scott - I should have mentioned, the beads you gave me in the newbie sampler trade are at least partially responsible for the solid rh Thanks again!

[shilala]

Originally Posted by neoflex

Ive always noticed that when the temp drops so does my rh but if the temps than rise the rh follows it so during the day when I have the heat kicked down low and the rh drops with the temp of my cabinet I usually don't stress because as soon as the temperature rises the rh follows it so if I compensated for the low rh it would be too high when the heat kicked on. Not sure if it's posted here or if it was the other place but there was a chart that showed how rh was relative to temp and where you should be for certain temps.If yours is at 65% solid I would not sweat it as that is an ideal rh. If you feel really nervous just pop the lid from time to time and pull out a stick and give it a slight squeeze to see if your smokes are starting to feel dry. I've learned not to stress to much about it. My biggest complaint about this time of year is how often I need to re-charge my beads and refill the Oasis but to be honest I much rather that than having to run the AC all day long at 67-68 even when no one is home in the summers. I fear the heat more than I worry about my humidity. Keeping the rh where it needs to be is a walk in the park compared to dealing with high summer temps and making sure I am keeping the house cool enough to keep my cigars cool. One of thee days I will go the Vino route and put all my worries behind me.

I'm guessing you stress about keeping the temp so low because you're worried about beetles?
When tobacco is fermented, the internal bale temp reaches over 118 degrees. Proteins denature at 106 degrees. That means beetle eggs should all die in the process.
That's why when we get cc's that never see any air conditioning or cooling whatsoever, seldom if ever do we see any beetles.
It's because their process and product absolutely requires that the tobacco be cured properly and carefully. If not, the ambient temperature in their storage and processing would be overrun with beetles.
The only time a beetle egg gets through is when the bales aren't pulled apart and resorted and restacked inside out often enough or completely enough.
In all the years I've smoked, and all the thousands of cigars that have passed through me, I've seen exactly one beetled cigar, and it came that way.
I keep a cabinet at 75 degrees all summer.
I keep a humidor outside on the back porch all summer.
I keep a humidor in my shed all summer. (It gets brutally hot in there at times.)
Not once have I ever hatched a beetle.
All that was to get to this...
I hate smoking cold cigars. I've watched all this stuff just so I'd be comfortable keeping my cigars at any temperature.
I keep my vino at 70 degrees, because that's as high as I can get it to go.
Still no beetles, and the cigars are so much more inviting.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by shilala

Relative Humidity is relative to the temperature. That's why it's called relative humidity.
The actual difference of volume of water in a cooler at 55 degrees and a cooler at 75 degrees both at 65% is so tiny it's negligible, and literally not worth mentioning.
You have absolutely nothing to worry about, Colin. You should be overjoyed. You done good.

[neoflex]

I have had one beetle outbreak many years ago and have noticed a beetle hole in a couple cc's recently that I could have sworn wasn't there when I first received the stick but fortunately I keep the very few cc's I do have separated in their own storage just because cc's do make me nervous in this aspect. Probably the best excuse I have to not clipping down taht slope. Witnessing a beetle outbreak and seeing them pop up here on the boards when the weather warms up is enough to keep me nervous. I have way too much invested in what sits in my cabinet to have it not give me a knot in my stomach when the temps climb above 70 degrees.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by neoflex

I have had one beetle outbreak many years ago and have noticed a beetle hole in a couple cc's recently that I could have sworn wasn't there when I first received the stick but fortunately I keep the very few cc's I do have separated in their own storage just because cc's do make me nervous in this aspect. Probably the best excuse I have to not clipping down taht slope. Witnessing a beetle outbreak and seeing them pop up here on the boards when the weather warms up is enough to keep me nervous. I have way too much invested in what sits in my cabinet to have it not give me a knot in my stomach when the temps climb above 70 degrees.

Perhaps I must the rare exception and lucky one but I have never, ever, had a beetle outbreak due to CC's.

I have had only one beetle outbreak in my nearly 20 years smoking and storing cigars that was attributed to FAKE CC's. They were a box of R&J Churchill glass tops sent by an uncle in Cuba that thought he was doing a favor for us.

I don't freeze mine. I don't take any steps to avoid it. I store them in the summer as high as 77 degrees, due to not being able to afford colder temperatures in Florida in the summer due to high electric costs.
In fact, in the middle of winter now, my humi temp is no lower than 72-73 during this past cold spell we had.
I store boxes, with each vitola to its own original box.
I use two generic boxes to store high end singles.
I use a zip lock bag to store other NC singles.

Knock on wood, has worked well for me.

[MajorCaptSilly]

There was a lot of debate about this years ago on alt.smokers.cigars newsgroup. The conensus was that temperature has little or no effect on cigars (unless you're freezing or baking them). The correlation between temp and RH is non-existant. If you are at 57 degrees and 57% humidity, your cigars may be a little dry for you. If you're at 57 degrees and 75% humidty, you're going to have wet, plugged cigars and maybe some beetles.

MCS

[T.G]

Originally Posted by shilala

I'm guessing you stress about keeping the temp so low because you're worried about beetles?
When tobacco is fermented, the internal bale temp reaches over 118 degrees. Proteins denature at 106 degrees. That means beetle eggs should all die in the process.
That's why when we get cc's that never see any air conditioning or cooling whatsoever, seldom if ever do we see any beetles.
It's because their process and product absolutely requires that the tobacco be cured properly and carefully. If not, the ambient temperature in their storage and processing would be overrun with beetles.
The only time a beetle egg gets through is when the bales aren't pulled apart and resorted and restacked inside out often enough or completely enough.
In all the years I've smoked, and all the thousands of cigars that have passed through me, I've seen exactly one beetled cigar, and it came that way.
I keep a cabinet at 75 degrees all summer.
I keep a humidor outside on the back porch all summer.
I keep a humidor in my shed all summer. (It gets brutally hot in there at times.)
Not once have I ever hatched a beetle.
All that was to get to this...
I hate smoking cold cigars. I've watched all this stuff just so I'd be comfortable keeping my cigars at any temperature.
I keep my vino at 70 degrees, because that's as high as I can get it to go.
Still no beetles, and the cigars are so much more inviting.

[sarcasm]
And beetles will NEVER lay eggs on the leaves after they have been fermented. Nope. Not a chance. They could never go near a box of finished tobacco, because they just HATE the taste of it...
[/sarcasm]

[NCRadioMan]

Originally Posted by shilala

That's why when we get cc's that never see any air conditioning or cooling whatsoever, seldom if ever do we see any beetles.

Habanos has been freezing for more than 3 years now, fwiw.

Originally Posted by MajorCaptSilly

There was a lot of debate about this years ago on alt.smokers.cigars newsgroup. The conensus was that temperature has little or no effect on cigars (unless you're freezing or baking them). The correlation between temp and RH is non-existant. If you are at 57 degrees and 57% humidity, your cigars may be a little dry for you. If you're at 57 degrees and 75% humidty, you're going to have wet, plugged cigars and maybe some beetles.

MCS

Agreed except high humidity doesn't cause beetles to hatch, high temps do. However, like Carlos and others that can't control temps, some never or seldom see them and others see them often.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by MajorCaptSilly

There was a lot of debate about this years ago on alt.smokers.cigars newsgroup. The conensus was that temperature has little or no effect on cigars (unless you're freezing or baking them). The correlation between temp and RH is non-existant. If you are at 57 degrees and 57% humidity, your cigars may be a little dry for you. If you're at 57 degrees and 75% humidty, you're going to have wet, plugged cigars and maybe some beetles.

MCS

That's pretty much what I thought, but I wanted to run it by a few people. Seems that is the consensus here as well. Thanks for your input.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

Habanos has been freezing for more than 3 years now, fwiw.

I thought it was more like 5-6 years ago that they started flash freezing all the finished product prior to shipment?

Prior to the freezing, they had been using fumigation for a few decades (or possibly longer).

[NCRadioMan]

Originally Posted by T.G

I thought it was more like 5-6 years ago that they started flash freezing all the finished product prior to shipment?

Prior to the freezing, they had been using fumigation for a few decades (or possibly longer).

Yeah, I think that's right. I did say more than 3 years.

Time fly's.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

Agreed except high humidity doesn't cause beetles to hatch, high temps do. However, like Carlos and others that can't control temps, some never or seldom see them and others see them often.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

Yeah, I think that's right. I did say more than 3 years.

Time fly's.

LOL - yeah, it was a poorly phrased response on my part.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by T.G

[sarcasm]
And beetles will NEVER lay eggs on the leaves after they have been fermented. Nope. Not a chance. They could never go near a box of finished tobacco, because they just HATE the taste of it...
[/sarcasm]

Good point.
In my way of thinking, quality control ought to have taken care of that by the end of the cigar making.
I had no idea Habanos flash freezes their cigars. I don't believe it for a second, either, but that's just me. The cost effectiveness would be so outrageously prohibitive and that government is gonna hang on to every penny they can get their hands on. I just can't imagine it actually happening.
What I CAN believe is that they would say it happens.
I suppose if you freeze you can take a lot less time working the tobacco properly, but with slave labor, you can restack a lot of leaves for what it'd cost to freeze cigars.
Don't pay me any mind, I'm just thinking out loud, but thanks for making the point. It's what made me think about it in the first place.