Beetles help

[davearob]

I have been smoking cigars for about a 1 1/2 years now. I have purchased cigars from several major US vendors. This week end when I was opening up a bundle to make more room in my cooladore I found a small white grub in the bundle. I checked the rest of the bundle and the shipment that came with that bundle and only found one cigar that had holes in it. I took that whole shipment and gave it the freezer treatment. The bundles were never opened and they were only in the coolador for about two weeks. I didn't freeze the rest of my cigars because I couldn't see any evidence in the rest of them (the cooler also never gets abouv 65 f). I have until this point been trusting major US suppliers and never had an issue. What I would like to know from the vastly more experienced guys on this board is what I should do abut this? Should I complain to the vendor and is this much to get upset about? Should I go through the intensive process of freezing all of my cigars
Thanks
Dave

[Old Sailor]

If the bundle was wrapped, I think your other cigars are ok, I'd contact the seller and see what they will do, might be worth it.

Personally, I'd just freeze the bundle and smoke them. Returning them might be more hassle then it's worth. If you freeze them before they go buck wild on your leaves, you're fine.

In my experience (beetles two times) trusting that the larvae haven't moved to other sticks is a risky venture. The fact that they are wrapped does not preclude the larvae from getting out and being in other sticks or boxes.

Just my $0.02 but for what you have invested.

I would freeze the bunch, for a detailed long winded post on how and why go here.



http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7919

I would email the seller and let them know that you received beetles with your sticks. I would do that even if you don't plan to exchange the sticks, because it's always nice to let the vendor know there might be a problem with their storage. If they decide to exchange your sticks for a new bundle, then go ahead and do that, if they don't, then don't worry, you killed those bastards off when you froze them.

Now about your other sticks.. I wouldn't freeze them yet, because more than likely the beetles would have moved to the bundle first instead of your other stored cigars.. but keep an eye on them for the next week and see if they are showing signs of beetles. If they are, then freeze them all.

Goodluck man!

[NCRadioMan]

Originally Posted by Chompers

I would email the seller and let them know that you received beetles with your sticks. I would do that even if you don't plan to exchange the sticks, because it's always nice to let the vendor know there might be a problem with their storage. If they decide to exchange your sticks for a new bundle, then go ahead and do that, if they don't, then don't worry, you killed those bastards off when you froze them.

Now about your other sticks.. I wouldn't freeze them yet, because more than likely the beetles would have moved to the bundle first instead of your other stored cigars.. but keep an eye on them for the next week and see if they are showing signs of beetles. If they are, then freeze them all.

Goodluck man!

This is what I would have said. The vendor may give a credit or a few extra cigars on your next order.

[Lucky_Hippo]

Question for the experts:

I know freezing kills off the little buggers that have hatched, but does it kill off the eggs that are dormant? I didn't think it did, so hypothetically speaking even if you freeze all incomming shipments you still have the potential for a beetle outbreak if conditions arise, correct?

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To OP, I'd take the extra step and make the phone call to the place you bought them to help raise a flag and see what their policy is on bugs. It can't be the first time it's happened, and you may get a nice little bonus for giving them a heads up.

Originally Posted by Lucky_Hippo

Question for the experts:

I know freezing kills off the little buggers that have hatched, but does it kill off the eggs that are dormant? I didn't think it did, so hypothetically speaking even if you freeze all incomming shipments you still have the potential for a beetle outbreak if conditions arise, correct?

----------------------------------

To OP, I'd take the extra step and make the phone call to the place you bought them to help raise a flag and see what their policy is on bugs. It can't be the first time it's happened, and you may get a nice little bonus for giving them a heads up.

PM Sent

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by Lucky_Hippo

Question for the experts:
I know freezing kills off the little buggers that have hatched, but does it kill off the eggs that are dormant? I didn't think it did, so hypothetically speaking even if you freeze all incomming shipments you still have the potential for a beetle outbreak if conditions arise, correct?

No, freezing does not kill off dormant eggs. I even read a post somewhere (forgot where otherwise I would like it) of someone freezing a set, and microwaving a different set of cigars, letting them sit out in the sun and they still hatched. So yes, you can freeze to ensure that the shipment sent to you will have no living beetles if shipping conditions were not good, but if your own storage conditions can cause a beetle outbreak too.

I'm with Darrel on this though, just smoke them and don't bother exchanging them. Beetles happen when in transit, not from the distributor who have tempeture and RH covered. You may get some free cigars if you persisted but why mooch when it's not their fault? Person choice there.

[Tio Gato]

It's my understanding is that freezing will kill the eggs as long as you can get the temp low enough. I think 10 to 20 below zero is what is needed. If I can find where I read this I will post a link. Unfortunately most home refrigerators can't get that low. Usually only commercial grades can. A lot of cigars have eggs in them, but they don't hatch because the ideal conditions have not occurred. Eggs hatch above 70 F. Keep them below that and you should be OK.
You should absolutely contact the vendor and let them know. Their response will be a great indication of whether they deserve your business or not.
Best of luck!

[karmaz00]

good luck...damn things

Originally Posted by Raralith

No, freezing does not kill off dormant eggs. I even read a post somewhere (forgot where otherwise I would like it) of someone freezing a set, and microwaving a different set of cigars, letting them sit out in the sun and they still hatched. So yes, you can freeze to ensure that the shipment sent to you will have no living beetles if shipping conditions were not good, but if your own storage conditions can cause a beetle outbreak too.

I'm with Darrel on this though, just smoke them and don't bother exchanging them. Beetles happen when in transit, not from the distributor who have tempeture and RH covered. You may get some free cigars if you persisted but why mooch when it's not their fault? Person choice there.

This is not correct, freezing does in fact kill off dormant eggs, larvae, pupai, and full grown beetles.

There is an extensive study done on this, I have a copy of the white paper if you would like to read it. Also I posted the link above.

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by SilverFox

This is not correct, freezing does in fact kill off dormant eggs, larvae, pupai, and full grown beetles.

There is an extensive study done on this, I have a copy of the white paper if you would like to read it. Also I posted the link above.

Sure, I'd like to see this. The post you made is just your procedure, but I did you take any cigars and leave it in your car for a week at 100 F and see if anything hatched? Not that I could see.

The Cuban government freezes their cigars too, and you can definately get eggs from CC's so I highly highly highly doubt that freezing would kill all eggs. Fortunately, I've got a way to test this, and am willing to so you'll see something shortly. I've also heard a lot, but no real test to back any of it up.

Originally Posted by Raralith

Sure, I'd like to see this. The post you made is just your procedure, but I did you take any cigars and leave it in your car for a week at 100 F and see if anything hatched? Not that I could see.

The Cuban government freezes their cigars too, and you can definately get eggs from CC's so I highly highly highly doubt that freezing would kill all eggs. Fortunately, I've got a way to test this, and am willing to so you'll see something shortly. I've also heard a lot, but no real test to back any of it up.

The study is located here.

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/...41_87/_article

Feel free to read at your leisure.

My thread is the procedure as well as excerpts of the empirical evidence as provided in the study, not just my procedure as you so kindly note.

Leaving a cigar in a car for a week is hardly a controlled study.

I have first hand experience with Beetles in 2 cases. Freezing corrected both instances to assume that all I had was one live beetle and no other eggs or other issues would put at risk my entire collection and I am not willing to risk 1,800 cigars on a maybe.

I have had this argument many times and only provide the scientific study that was undertaken as support plus my own personal experience, not the "I read it somewhere in a thread but can't remember" anecdote.

As for freezing at the source I have noted that as well here is the quote from that thread.

One of the first things to understand is that although many producers including cubans may flash freeze their cigars that is only one point on the stop to your humidor. Also cigars are very insulative and given that we do not fully know the quality control of the producer there is risk that eggs are not killed. In addition there are points along the way that beetles can be introduced, secondary wholesaler, vendor, or sadly that fellow BOTL or SOTL that so kindly bombed you are sold you a few sticks.

In addition although not first hand knowledge, someone I trust and is a very knowledgeable BOTL has gone to Cuba on many occasions and has noted that freezing although in place is not the standard.

If you don't agree with the study or me that is fine but to make a categorical statement to someones request based on heresay doesn't seem like the best advice.

Either way I respect that in your opinion freezing will not work, it is not my opinion but that is the great thing about an opinion it is your right to have one as is it mine.

[sepp]

Here is a link to the full article:

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/aez/41/1/87/_pdf

it is important to note that the exposure time changes with the depth of tempurature drop.

to eliminate beetles in any stage of development they must be exposed to the following temperatures at the stipulated minimum times:

Temperature (C/F) -> Min time (Hours)
-20C/- 4F -> 1 hrs
-15C/+ 5F -> 6
-10C/+14F -> 24
- 5C/+23F -> 504
+0C/+32F -> 1,176
+5C/+41F -> 1,680

Note that additional time is required to ensure that the temperature has dropped to such levels at the core of the cigars.

Leave not doubt, freeze and kill the little bastards!

[hotreds]

Originally Posted by Tio Gato

It's my understanding is that freezing will kill the eggs as long as you can get the temp low enough. I think 10 to 20 below zero is what is needed. If I can find where I read this I will post a link. Unfortunately most home refrigerators can't get that low. Usually only commercial grades can. A lot of cigars have eggs in them, but they don't hatch because the ideal conditions have not occurred. Eggs hatch above 70 F. Keep them below that and you should be OK.
You should absolutely contact the vendor and let them know. Their response will be a great indication of whether they deserve your business or not.
Best of luck!

Correct- home freezers don't get cold enough to kill the eggs. Good luck to you- what an unpleasant sight!

Originally Posted by hotreds

Correct- home freezers don't get cold enough to kill the eggs. Good luck to you- what an unpleasant sight!

The average temperature of a household freezer is between -12 and -18 degrees Celsius which is more than enough for 100% mortality of all life cycles of tobacco beetles based on the study.

[davearob]

Thanks for all your input. I contacted the supplier. He was very good about it and assured me that his cigars are frozen when he receives them, so the one I received must have been killed during the freezing he already put it through. This would probably explain why only one was damaged. I followed the 1 day fridge 3day deep freeze one day fridge with the rest. I will definitely keep my eye on the rest. To bad I didn't notice them earlier as it was -25c overnight this last week end. I could have sat my coolidor out side over night. Great article silverfox. I decided just to smoke the rest and avoid the hassle of trying to return them. Once again thanks for all your advice it is appreciated.

[white_s2k]

The vendor freezes all of his cigars before he ships them out???

[ucla695]

Sorry to hear about this. I hope you're able to kill all of the bastages.