Photographers....help, please

dave · 01-20-2012, 02:13 PM

Questions about where to start......

Judging by the photography thread, there are some incredible photographers hanging around here. I take it that at least a few of you are professional.

I have a very good friend who is quite artistic - AA in graphic arts, considerable talent as a painter, etc. She has recently decided that she'd like to become a professional photographer. This came after a recent visit to a local for-profit "Art Institute". I don't question her desire, drive or ambition. However, I'm scared by the pressure sales (and, I admit, the extremely high cost) at the 'institute'.

Unfortunately, I am the least artistic person I know and have zero knowledge about how to guide or even conduct this conversation. All I know is that I'm afraid we're getting sold by the school more than successful career ingredients. Google hasn't been all that friendly, either.

So, I'm just looking for some very basic info from any pros out there:

1. Do you think a BA from an "Art Institute" at 30+K a year is worth that much more than one from a 'state school'?

2. How do we even evaluate an art school? (If this were an engineering or business program, I think I could easily research, discuss and evaluate - but I'm really at a loss here.)

3. Do you have any recommended web destinations that I can do my own research? Forums or such where I can get some objective opinions?

4. Your thoughts on education, getting experience, keys for success, etc.

Thank you very much, in advance!

pektel · 01-20-2012, 02:20 PM

For a great photography forum, I really like photography-on-the.net

It is Canon-based, so don't expect anything Nikon related there. But there are a bunch of really talented people there, and would probably be able to answer your question very well.

Bax · 01-20-2012, 02:21 PM

I'm not a pro but my wife and father are. The questions you ask are very difficult to answer. I'd say no from the artistic perspective. If you see some of the pics my old man has done they're amazing. He dropped out of school, joined the navy and became a war photographer in the Navy. From the technical perspective, you need to learn the basics.

I'd look for a community college that's got a beginners class. If you really dig it then by all means look into a degree. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to get you in contact with my father.

LostAbbott · 01-20-2012, 02:49 PM

No NO **** NO. I am a professional photographer and have a very strong opnion about art schools... obviously....

The problem is that all you get from a professional photography school is time and connections. The connections are worth the price at Brooks in California and two or three of the places in NYC. The actual "teaching" is completely worthless as they cannot teach you to have an 'eye" you either have it or not and if you have it you need to shoot hundreds of thousands of frames to refine and develop it.

I spent a good 4 years with nothing but a simple manual film camera (Nikon FM2n) with a 50mm F1.4 lens on it shooting everything, everyday. I never changes the lens and mostly shot black and white. This is hand down the best way to shoot. The black and white really helps you learn how to use light while the full manual helps you to learn the gear and the 50 teaches you composure. I can shoot any camera with any gear in any conditions because that was my foundation and base. I have never taken a class and only worked with other photographers and we built our craft together.

I would suggest you friend find the best photographer in here city and camp on his door until he lets her file paper work for him or whatever for free. That way she can see how hard the work is, how difficult it is to get work and what it actually takes knowledge and connection wise.

Professional Photography is the worst ****ing business to start and there is not value to build up. All you have is your name and images. There is not selling the business there is no retiring, and you cannot slow down. Every penny goes back into it for the first ten years at least, then you spend your time fighting for jobs that your client thinks he can give to a rookie out of college who will work for free. It is really freaking hard and you spend 90% of your time doing everything but actually making pictures...

Seeing as how this thread is a photography thread I will post a link to my site in the next post. If it is not cool please feel free to flag the mods and have it removed.

LostAbbott · 01-20-2012, 02:49 PM

www.lostphotography.com

LostAbbott · 01-20-2012, 09:03 PM

Ok that last paragraph is a little harsh. I need to tack on that I love it and could not be doing anything else. You need that drive though to make it work. You have to love photography and everything that comes with it in order to make it work... If she finds that passion through working for an established pro then fantastic, time to go do it... If not she saved ~$120k over four years and can now focus on something else.

LostAbbott · 01-20-2012, 09:05 PM

This is freaking great.

http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2...photographers/

MrClean · 01-20-2012, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pektel

For a great photography forum, I really like photography-on-the.net

I love that forum. For photographers, no matter what equipment used, it is a wealth of info.

dave · 01-21-2012, 07:17 AM

Huge thanks, my friends. Mychal, I really appreciate your insight and sincerity. I really love the advice to young photographers. And, I like your idea about seeking out a local professional and following, learning, etc. We're just outside DC and finding a couple shouldn't be all too hard, I hope.
Tim, I too, think that a few intro classes at a state school (or even CC) might be a better way to get the feet wet, but I'm afraid that may not be an option for reasons I can't clearly articulate. I'm trying to leave that door open, but.....
Peter, thank you for the forum recommendation. I'll get into there this weekend.
Again, thanks to all. I must admit that I quickly turn this into a purely dollars and cents discussion - return on investment, blah, blah blah. I know that an Arts Institute almost certainly will not pay for itself in terms of earnings - but as to experience, knowledge and opportunities, maybe I can open my mind to other value possibilities.
I do want to encourage this dream and facilitate success - I'm just floundering on how to do that - thanks again.

ashtonlady · 01-21-2012, 01:35 PM

Dave, where is he now? What equipment does he have and is he still using the green box or is past that? I am not close to being a pro, but what I have learned in the past year is to take a lot of pictures. My teachers challange was to take at least on picture a day and post it. This makes you look at it and grow. That is just my thought.

01-20-2012, 02:13 PM	#1
dave Have My Own Room Join Date: May 2011 First Name: Dave Location: Northern VA Posts: 1,180 Trading: (15)	Photographers....help, please Questions about where to start...... Judging by the photography thread, there are some incredible photographers hanging around here. I take it that at least a few of you are professional. I have a very good friend who is quite artistic - AA in graphic arts, considerable talent as a painter, etc. She has recently decided that she'd like to become a professional photographer. This came after a recent visit to a local for-profit "Art Institute". I don't question her desire, drive or ambition. However, I'm scared by the pressure sales (and, I admit, the extremely high cost) at the 'institute'. Unfortunately, I am the least artistic person I know and have zero knowledge about how to guide or even conduct this conversation. All I know is that I'm afraid we're getting sold by the school more than successful career ingredients. Google hasn't been all that friendly, either. So, I'm just looking for some very basic info from any pros out there: 1. Do you think a BA from an "Art Institute" at 30+K a year is worth that much more than one from a 'state school'? 2. How do we even evaluate an art school? (If this were an engineering or business program, I think I could easily research, discuss and evaluate - but I'm really at a loss here.) 3. Do you have any recommended web destinations that I can do my own research? Forums or such where I can get some objective opinions? 4. Your thoughts on education, getting experience, keys for success, etc. Thank you very much, in advance!

01-20-2012, 02:20 PM	#2
pektel I'm nuts for the place Join Date: Jul 2010 First Name: Peter Location: Grand Rapids, MN Posts: 4,320 Trading: (28)	Re: Photographers....help, please For a great photography forum, I really like photography-on-the.net It is Canon-based, so don't expect anything Nikon related there. But there are a bunch of really talented people there, and would probably be able to answer your question very well. __________________ The problem is not the problem. The problem is your ATTITUDE about the problem.

01-20-2012, 02:21 PM	#3
Bax C A P S...CAPS CAPS CAPS! Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Ringgold,GA Posts: 2,173 Trading: (70)	Re: Photographers....help, please I'm not a pro but my wife and father are. The questions you ask are very difficult to answer. I'd say no from the artistic perspective. If you see some of the pics my old man has done they're amazing. He dropped out of school, joined the navy and became a war photographer in the Navy. From the technical perspective, you need to learn the basics. I'd look for a community college that's got a beginners class. If you really dig it then by all means look into a degree. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to get you in contact with my father. __________________ I'm the most interesting man in the world... but only if you find stupid stuff really interesting.

01-20-2012, 02:49 PM	#4
LostAbbott Have My Own Room Join Date: Aug 2010 First Name: Mychal Location: Seattle Posts: 1,165 Trading: (23)	Re: Photographers....help, please No NO ** NO. I am a professional photographer and have a very strong opnion about art schools... obviously.... The problem is that all you get from a professional photography school is time and connections. The connections are worth the price at Brooks in California and two or three of the places in NYC. The actual "teaching" is completely worthless as they cannot teach you to have an 'eye" you either have it or not and if you have it you need to shoot hundreds of thousands of frames to refine and develop it. I spent a good 4 years with nothing but a simple manual film camera (Nikon FM2n) with a 50mm F1.4 lens on it shooting everything, everyday. I never changes the lens and mostly shot black and white. This is hand down the best way to shoot. The black and white really helps you learn how to use light while the full manual helps you to learn the gear and the 50 teaches you composure. I can shoot any camera with any gear in any conditions because that was my foundation and base. I have never taken a class and only worked with other photographers and we built our craft together. I would suggest you friend find the best photographer in here city and camp on his door until he lets her file paper work for him or whatever for free. That way she can see how hard the work is, how difficult it is to get work and what it actually takes knowledge and connection wise. Professional Photography is the worst **ing business to start and there is not value to build up. All you have is your name and images. There is not selling the business there is no retiring, and you cannot slow down. Every penny goes back into it for the first ten years at least, then you spend your time fighting for jobs that your client thinks he can give to a rookie out of college who will work for free. It is really freaking hard and you spend 90% of your time doing everything but actually making pictures... Seeing as how this thread is a photography thread I will post a link to my site in the next post. If it is not cool please feel free to flag the mods and have it removed. __________________ Damn I got a lot of smokes I need to try.

01-20-2012, 02:49 PM	#5
LostAbbott Have My Own Room Join Date: Aug 2010 First Name: Mychal Location: Seattle Posts: 1,165 Trading: (23)	Re: Photographers....help, please www.lostphotography.com __________________ Damn I got a lot of smokes I need to try.

01-20-2012, 09:03 PM	#6
LostAbbott Have My Own Room Join Date: Aug 2010 First Name: Mychal Location: Seattle Posts: 1,165 Trading: (23)	Re: Photographers....help, please Ok that last paragraph is a little harsh. I need to tack on that I love it and could not be doing anything else. You need that drive though to make it work. You have to love photography and everything that comes with it in order to make it work... If she finds that passion through working for an established pro then fantastic, time to go do it... If not she saved ~$120k over four years and can now focus on something else. __________________ Damn I got a lot of smokes I need to try.

01-20-2012, 09:05 PM	#7
LostAbbott Have My Own Room Join Date: Aug 2010 First Name: Mychal Location: Seattle Posts: 1,165 Trading: (23)	Re: Photographers....help, please This is freaking great. http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2...photographers/ __________________ Damn I got a lot of smokes I need to try.

01-21-2012, 07:17 AM	#9
dave Have My Own Room Join Date: May 2011 First Name: Dave Location: Northern VA Posts: 1,180 Trading: (15)	Re: Photographers....help, please Huge thanks, my friends. Mychal, I really appreciate your insight and sincerity. I really love the advice to young photographers. And, I like your idea about seeking out a local professional and following, learning, etc. We're just outside DC and finding a couple shouldn't be all too hard, I hope. Tim, I too, think that a few intro classes at a state school (or even CC) might be a better way to get the feet wet, but I'm afraid that may not be an option for reasons I can't clearly articulate. I'm trying to leave that door open, but..... Peter, thank you for the forum recommendation. I'll get into there this weekend. Again, thanks to all. I must admit that I quickly turn this into a purely dollars and cents discussion - return on investment, blah, blah blah. I know that an Arts Institute almost certainly will not pay for itself in terms of earnings - but as to experience, knowledge and opportunities, maybe I can open my mind to other value possibilities. I do want to encourage this dream and facilitate success - I'm just floundering on how to do that - thanks again.

01-21-2012, 01:35 PM	#10
ashtonlady The Lady is Here Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Laura Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,090 Trading: (8)	Re: Photographers....help, please Dave, where is he now? What equipment does he have and is he still using the green box or is past that? I am not close to being a pro, but what I have learned in the past year is to take a lot of pictures. My teachers challange was to take at least on picture a day and post it. This makes you look at it and grow. That is just my thought.