Shilala Beads

Originally Posted by lbowles2

You don't recharge the Shilala beads like you do the Heartfelt beads. Once they achieve the rh you want that is where they stay until you remove them from that environment. Once you move them to another environment they will try to achieve that ph level. That's why they say to store them in a ziplock back when not in use.

You do have to recharge them right? So the question is how do you recharge them without changing the PH?

[mithrilG60]

The only time you should have to add moisture is if: a) you have a bad seal/leaky humidor, b) you open the humidor ALOT and leave it open for long periods of time. If your RH does drop, and stay, at a lower level than you want you just need to put the beads in a sealed container with a water soaked sponge for a few hours to increase their water saturation. When you put the beads back into the humidor your RH will raise as the beads shed moisture in reseeking equilibrium.

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

The only time you should have to add moisture is if: a) you have a bad seal/leaky humidor, b) you open the humidor ALOT and leave it open for long periods of time. If your RH does drop, and stay, at a lower level than you want you just need to put the beads in a sealed container with a water soaked sponge for a few hours to increase their water saturation. When you put the beads back into the humidor your RH will raise as the beads shed moisture in reseeking equilibrium.

No humidor is perfect and the beads will need recharging.

If you put them in a sealed container with a water soaked spong you will raise the PH.

Still the question remains....

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

The only time you should have to add moisture is if: a) you have a bad seal/leaky humidor, b) you open the humidor ALOT and leave it open for long periods of time. If your RH does drop, and stay, at a lower level than you want you just need to put the beads in a sealed container with a water soaked sponge for a few hours to increase their water saturation. When you put the beads back into the humidor your RH will raise as the beads shed moisture in reseeking equilibrium.

traditional humidors are meant to 'breathe', the seals aren't perfect because they aren't supposed to be.

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by Trouble

No humidor is perfect and the beads will need recharging.

If you put them in a sealed container with a water soaked spong you will raise the PH.

Still the question remains....

No, I'm not kidding. IF your beads need recharging you put them in a sealed container with a water soaked sponge.... just like the instructions on the website (and those that come with the beads) say so the beads can absorb additional moisture. That in turn will raise the RH of the humidor when you put the beads back in. If the beads scrub ammonia like the website claims then their effect on the PH will trend towards neutral, but in general PH is not a major concern.

Originally Posted by Mindflux

traditional humidors are meant to 'breathe', the seals aren't perfect because they aren't supposed to be.

I never said they didn't breathe, I said that unless you have a crappy seal or open your humidor all the time you should not have to add moisture. A well constructed humidor breathes primarily through it's wood, and the moisture loss should be very very minimal unless you happen to live somewhere extremely arid. The average RH in my area is typically around 40%, when I was using Heartfelt beads I would only have to recharge them maybe 3 times a year. Given everyone's posted and documented experience with HCM beads I expect that, once my humidors have reached the 70% steady state I'm moving them towards that I will for all intents and purposes not need to add moisture.

Your mileage may vary, but you are constantly and frequently having to add moisture you either live in a desert or have a leaky humidor

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Trouble

No humidor is perfect and the beads will need recharging.

If you put them in a sealed container with a water soaked spong you will raise the PH.

Still the question remains....

There's recharging instructions at Michael's site. The link is in my sig.
The beads work via equilibrium, as mentioned.
They hold a vast amount of water as opposed to conventional beads. By way of a sh!t ton of mathematical and physical properties, they need to be "recharged" very seldom, even in a "traditionally mildly leaky humidor" situation.

To give you an idea, you can open a winador around 800 times before the beads will move one point in RH.
Granted, that statement is assuming the room is within 20 points of the beads. As in the beads are at 65% and the room is between 45% and 85%. There are a zillion variables to do that equation, and the final number relies on the very ends of the equation. In normal instances, you can open and close your humi forever without the beads changing, because the winter is drier and the summer is wetter, and the beads simply recondition upwards and downwards across the time period.
A humi has to really have an exceptionally bad seal to affect the beads negatively. So bad that it doesn't fall into the "traditional breathing category" whatsoever. It has to fall into the "it's more a shoebox than a humidor" category.
I'm not doing the math for someone who lives in the rainforest or in the desert.
Hope this helps!!!

[shilala]

On the ammonia/PH thing...
To recharge, you use water vapor. That way there is no chance of soiling the surface of the beads. You use distilled water.

The beads trap ammonia via their structure and covalency.
The beads are full of tunnels. Those tunnels are small enough to hold out free hydrocarbns, yet large enough to let in ammonia molecules.
Once ammonia is drawn in (and I say "drawn in" because it is via the electrical charge of the beads) it is bound inside the beads.
There is so much ammonia capturing potential in a volume of beads per volume of humidor space that they can never become saturated with ammonia in a humidor, no matter how many wet cigars you put in there.
It's another huge mathematical equation that bears that out. The never is because there's roughly 3,000 years of potential in a volume of beads per volume of humidor space, based on a constant flow of ammonia from cigars for that entire period. So I suppose never is a bit agressive.
Cool thing is that if you do live for 3000 years, all you have to do is steam clean the beads, all the ammonia will be released, and your beads are brand new and ready for another 3000 years.

[G G]

Originally Posted by Jack1000

To the folks using these: Did you have heartfelt beads before and find this to be better or was this your first go around with beads? I'm using the HF beads in my vinotemp and a a cooler and they work fine, but I find the claims of total RH stability from these intriguing. Might have to give some a try.

I had a tube of hearfelt beads in a desktop humi for over a year, and was contuinually having to recharge them with distilled water. I bought 1.5 lbs of the HCM beads from Scott for my vino when I bought it almost 2 years ago, and have only had to put a dish of distilled water in there maybe 2 times and it has now been at least a year since i had to do it and the humidity doesn't fluctuate. I also have two travel humis and bought what I thought was going to be one two ounce tube of HCM beads to go in my 36 count, and Scott sent a 2 ounce and a 1 ounce for the price of the 2 ounce. I now have to 1 ounce in my 15 count. I know that the comparison between a desktop and vino isn't apples to apples, but for my money as long as the HCM beads are available I will spend my money on them.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I certainly do not want or need an argument, but Scott Shilala is a stand up guy. When I was trying to figure out what to put in the vino for humidification I called him on the phone and he talked to me for an hour explaining how they worked and why they were better than anything else that is available. So even if Scott has an "interest" in the beads I will still buy them.

[Brutus2600]

Originally Posted by shilala

A humi has to really have an exceptionally bad seal to affect the beads negatively. So bad that it doesn't fall into the "traditional breathing category" whatsoever. It has to fall into the "it's more a shoebox than a humidor" category.

The mental image popped into my head of somebody anal retentive about their RH and trying to maintain it in a shoebox and just not able to figure out why it wouldn't stay stable. It cracked me up

Originally Posted by shilala

There's recharging instructions at Michael's site. The link is in my sig.
The beads work via equilibrium, as mentioned.
They hold a vast amount of water as opposed to conventional beads. By way of a sh!t ton of mathematical and physical properties, they need to be "recharged" very seldom, even in a "traditionally mildly leaky humidor" situation.

To give you an idea, you can open a winador around 800 times before the beads will move one point in RH.
Granted, that statement is assuming the room is within 20 points of the beads. As in the beads are at 65% and the room is between 45% and 85%. There are a zillion variables to do that equation, and the final number relies on the very ends of the equation. In normal instances, you can open and close your humi forever without the beads changing, because the winter is drier and the summer is wetter, and the beads simply recondition upwards and downwards across the time period.
A humi has to really have an exceptionally bad seal to affect the beads negatively. So bad that it doesn't fall into the "traditional breathing category" whatsoever. It has to fall into the "it's more a shoebox than a humidor" category.
I'm not doing the math for someone who lives in the rainforest or in the desert.
Hope this helps!!!

I do not see the recharging instructions on the site. I checked several times but maybe I am just missing it. Maybe you can just tell me.

[issues]

Originally Posted by Trouble

I do not see the recharging instructions on the site. I checked several times but maybe I am just missing it. Maybe you can just tell me.

Here's what I found on the site:

The HCM beads will (in a sealed environment) absorb water vapor until they reach equilibrium with their environment. This means that if all your cigars are at 70% the beads will absorb the water vapor until they reach an RH that is equal with the cigars.

This means that they will absorb the moisture from the cigars, and the beads themselves will be at a (slightly) higher RH. You should periodically check the RH of your beads by putting them in a Ziplock™ bag with a calibrated hygrometer for a couple of hours. If the beads are too high you can put them in your refrigerator until the RH comes down to where you want it. When you take the beads out of the cold environment you need to immediately put them into a Ziplock™ bag with a hygrometer until they warm to room temperature. Otherwise water will rapidly condense from the surrounding air onto the beads – defeating the whole drying-out process.

Never add water or wet HCM beads! If you want to increase the RH of the beads, put them in a Ziplock™, Tupperware™ or other sealed container with a damp sponge – making sure that the sponge does not touch the beads – and a hygrometer. Once the beads are at the desired RH, take the sponge out and seal the bag and let it sit for a time to verify that you have a stable RH.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Trouble

I do not see the recharging instructions on the site. I checked several times but maybe I am just missing it. Maybe you can just tell me.

I think I get your question now.
Your PH was a typo, you meant RH.
You don't need to "recharge" them at all if they don't need to be. You determine whether or not they need recharged (it's "reconditioned", actually) by reading your hygrometer.
They don't need to be reconditioned just for the sake of reconditioning, as in "do it once a month".
Most guys never have to do anything to them. Some guys, once or twice a year. Some more often depending on their humis.
When someone has to recondition frequently, there's only one reason why that would happens. It's because humidity is escaping or entering the humidor. That means it leaks too much.
Then you just gotta seal it up a bit, beit with silicone or a rubber seal or whatever.
Did I get your question and answer it that time?
If not, help me understand and I'll do what I can.

[stewshi]

Caring instructions are on the "about" portion of the site and there is a link at the bottom on how to use your beads.

Yes, I did mean RH not PH. We are not talking fishtanks here.

Now I understand. They only need to be 'recharged' if they fall below the desired RH level. Took me a minute but I get it now.

So I have a question, which I thought about when I saw the comment to only use distilled water to recharge. Note, I use the HCM beads and am thrilled with them, and I have not had to recharge them after months of use in Colorado.

On to the question, what difference would it make if distilled water (vs. tap) was used to recharge them if the water was being applied as a vapor (as in, evap'd from a sponge or water, etc). By definition, isn't turning the water into vapor going to be creating 'distilled' water in the process? I'm a biology guy, not a chemistry guy, so maybe I'm missing something critical.

I've always used distilled (back when I used traditional humidifiers, anyway) but got to thinking about what the difference would be in this application.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by polobear

So I have a question, which I thought about when I saw the comment to only use distilled water to recharge. Note, I use the HCM beads and am thrilled with them, and I have not had to recharge them after months of use in Colorado.

On to the question, what difference would it make if distilled water (vs. tap) was used to recharge them if the water was being applied as a vapor (as in, evap'd from a sponge or water, etc). By definition, isn't turning the water into vapor going to be creating 'distilled' water in the process? I'm a biology guy, not a chemistry guy, so maybe I'm missing something critical.

I've always used distilled (back when I used traditional humidifiers, anyway) but got to thinking about what the difference would be in this application.

I had the same question not so long ago. The small part is that evaporated water isn't distilled. It'll carry stuff away with it, to some extent.
That isn't the biggie, though.
If you use tap water, you take tons of spores, dirt, mold food, and crap to your humidor. Plus if you are using a sponge, it'll mold in a very short time.
By using distilled water, you keep a much more sanitary condition for a longer period of time.
There are mold spores everywhere, so in time, a distilled water soaked sponge will eventually mold, but it'll mold umpteen times faster with tap water. Both because there's more spores present and because tap water provides them food.

Well, that makes sense. But if we're putting the sponge and beads in a ziplock bag (not the humidor) to recharge it, would it still matter? Is this a question of contaminants making it onto the bead bag?

[CueTheMusic]

It might not matter as much if you are recharging in a ziplock baggie, but distilled water is so cheap and easy to come by, why risk it?

[OLS]

I think it is scientifically impossible to 'carry things with it' as water evaporates out of
the sponge and is taken up by beads. But I am no scientist. But I DO make fun of them.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by OLS

I think it is scientifically impossible to 'carry things with it' as water evaporates out of
the sponge and is taken up by beads. But I am no scientist. But I DO make fun of them.

Brad, I thought he same exact thing up until not too long ago. When I was developing the beads I went and read up on water vapor. In reading, I found out water vapor can carry all kinds of stuff along with it by binding to it. I never knew that despite the fact I should because of the work I was in, plus I knew molecules of water bound to crap in the atmosphere and other molecules of water to become clouds and fog and so forth.
I had planned on writing "tap water" in the instructions to make things easier on people. Then I found that tons of mold spores are present in tap water. Plus vapor from tap water is more likely to carry crap.
So right back to distilled water we went.
I always used distilled water cause the old guys here said to use it. It was nice to find out why.