Electrician question?

[RGD.]

Originally Posted by rack04

My wife and I are looking to buy our first home. The house we're looking at was built in 1954. . . . which I guess is common for this period of construction.

Congrats on becoming a homeowner - now the fun begins! No - it was not common construction during the 50's to leave off the ground wire. What was common was the two prong outlet - but that does not mean that you don't have a ground. Just because you (or the inspector) pulled an outlet out and didn't see one - does not mean you don't have one.

My entire work is in residential. Here are the common finds.

1. The ground wire may be attached to the back of the box on the clamp/screw.
2. It may be twisted around the wire before it was inserted into the box.
3. It may be cut short in the sleeve.
4. If you have BX cable it may be pulled back and wrapped around the cable before it was inserted.

I honestly can't remember the last time I found a home without a ground wire - and I work in a lot of old homes (my home is 1956).

Also - go pull off the circuit/fuse box cover and look. See if you have a black/white/copper there. If so - then they are at the box somewhere.


Someone mentioned having the home rewired. Don't toss out this idea. Keep in mind that the electrical needs of a family in the 50's verse now is huge. They had what - a few radios, one TV and maybe a blender and toaster in the kitchen. Compare that to what you have.

During my remodel last year I upgraded my box from the old 60 amp to 200 with a power up. In addition I had them pull damn near every inch of old wiring and replace it all - bringing the house and the new kitchen up to current code. Now we can run the microwave, toaster and the bathroom hair dryer with out blowing a circuit -

I could have done it myself - but it was a lot faster hiring an electrician. Plus I went from a 60 amp panel with 22 breakers to a 200 amp with 42 breakers - plus - another sub panel with another 22 breakers - and a 17Kw generator.

Yes it was pricey but worth every penny.

Anyway - good luck with it all.


Ron

[Hitagain]

Heres a link to the Dallas TX electrical requirements: http://www.dallascityhall.com/buildi...l_section.html

Around here depending what City/County your in, we work under NEC 1999 thru NEC 2008 and of course your always subject to the whim of the local AHJ inspector.
I have to agree with Ron on the fact that the electrical needs of modern household far out way what was needed in the 50's. A full rewire may be worth the cost.
Make sure you get everything in writing in the estimate, DONT ASSUME ANYTHING NOT IN THE BID IS INCLUDED! Also nail down a hourly rate and material markup for any extras before you sign a contract, last thing you need is the extras costing more than the bid job. Be detailed in telling the contractors what you want and get no less than 3 bids. Let each contractor know several people will be bidding on the job, makes them sharpen the pencil a little more. Right now construction work is slow, and contractors are taking work at cost and below to keep there men busy.

Congrats and Good Luck.

Allen

[Rabidsquirrel]

Originally Posted by cf2112

I do this everyday and I WOULD NOT replace the 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire receptacles, it is a code violation.

Is not, per the code I cited above. 406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c)

[kenstogie]

Wow, remind me to ask electrical questions here.

[Rabidsquirrel]

Originally Posted by kenstogie

Wow, remind me to ask electrical questions here.

Ask electrical questions here.

Too soon?

Originally Posted by Rabidsquirrel

Is not, per the code I cited above. 406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c)

I'll check the Code book but where I live you can not replace a 2 wire receptacle with a 3 wire receptacle unless it is GFCI proteced.

[Rabidsquirrel]

That's exactly what the code says. I believe it's the (b), off the top of my head. Post number three says to use a GFCI. Without looking at the code book, I think (a) says that you can use a grounded receptacle, but you have to identify it as an ungrounded receptacle.

I really need to open the code book more often. It only happens if I feel the need to argue with an inspector, which never really works out to well.

[Rabidsquirrel]

Whenever I dig it out of my truck, I'll type out the full article.

[BigFrank]

General Installation Requirements
406.3(D)(3)
Non-Grounding-Type Receptacles
-Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with...

a. A non grounding type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with another non grounding type receptacle.

b. A non grounding type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a GFCI type of receptacle. These receptacles shall be marked "no equipment ground". An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the GFCI type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the GFCI receptacle.

c. A non grounding type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding type receptacle where supplied through a GFCI. Grounding type receptacles supplied through the GFCI shale be marked "GFCI protected" and " No equipment ground" An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type receptacles.



Had to look something up tonight job related so there ya go.

[Rabidsquirrel]

Thanks.

Thanks!

[fpkjr]

Originally Posted by BORIStheBLADE

The new use of the arc faults is a good thing for new homes.It will help with fires and stuff. I got a chance to play with them in some high end homes.

I wouldn't dare try to put them in a house wired already.

Boris,
As I undrestand the NEC the use of the Arc Fault was brought about because tofthe wiring in older homes!
While I feel it's a great idea to use them in new home construction I think the statement I quoted would cause more harm.
This is a FYI post -
Check this quote from Mike Holt!
"Studies have shown that over 60 percent of fires are from causes in the fixed wiring, switches, receptacle outlets and lighting fixtures that are part of the fixed electrical system of a residence." In other words, AFCI's are focused on detecting arcing and preventing fires in an area where the risk is significant.

Arcing faults often occur in damaged or deteriorated wires and cords. Some causes of damaged and deteriorated wiring include:

puncturing of wire insulation from picture hanging or cable staples,
poorly installed outlets or switches,
cords caught in doors or under furniture,
furniture pushed against plugs in an outlet,
natural aging,
and cord exposure to heat vents and sunlight."

Several years ago in a yearend class we spent a good deal of time on these
Sorry for dragging this up
With respect
Frank

[BORIStheBLADE]

Originally Posted by fpkjr

Boris,
As I undrestand the NEC the use of the Arc Fault was brought about because tofthe wiring in older homes!
While I feel it's a great idea to use them in new home construction I think the statement I quoted would cause more harm.
This is a FYI post -
Check this quote from Mike Holt!
"Studies have shown that over 60 percent of fires are from causes in the fixed wiring, switches, receptacle outlets and lighting fixtures that are part of the fixed electrical system of a residence." In other words, AFCI's are focused on detecting arcing and preventing fires in an area where the risk is significant.

Arcing faults often occur in damaged or deteriorated wires and cords. Some causes of damaged and deteriorated wiring include:

puncturing of wire insulation from picture hanging or cable staples,
poorly installed outlets or switches,
cords caught in doors or under furniture,
furniture pushed against plugs in an outlet,
natural aging,
and cord exposure to heat vents and sunlight."

Several years ago in a yearend class we spent a good deal of time on these
Sorry for dragging this up
With respect
Frank

No insult taken.
I understand what they are good for and glad they have something for this, but......... Arc faults are ONLY supposed to be wired to receptacle circuits if I remember correctly. So with that, almost all older homes shared lights on the recept circuits.

I had a friend lose his house because a light was plugged in behind a couch and the couch was jammed up against it. He told me the firemen said thats were the fire started. That kind of stuff is scary.

The reason why I said I wouldn't dare do it is because I had to spend hours trying to trouble shoot this one bedroom in this new home and one of the other electricians wired it to the lights too. It took me a while to figure it out.

[rack04]

Since I got so many great responses with my first question I decide to throw another one your way.

I'm trying to properly ground my roof mounted antenna. I have come up with the following two options:

1.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the coax grounding block at the point of entry. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground.

2.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the 2" rigid riser. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground. Similar to the picture below except I will be making the connection to the rigid riser above the roof jack.



Option 2 is preferred because I wont have to run the #10 thhn stranded wire along the roof, around the awning, and down the brick wall to connect to the grounding block. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by BORIStheBLADE

No insult taken.
I understand what they are good for and glad they have something for this, but......... Arc faults are ONLY supposed to be wired to receptacle circuits if I remember correctly. So with that, almost all older homes shared lights on the recept circuits.

We put AFCI breakers on lights, Recpts, smoke detectprs, basically anything not GFCI protected or a dedicated circuit (fridge, micro, washer, ect.) this is code in our area and I believe NEC also

[Rabidsquirrel]

2008 code requires arc faults on anything not a GFI.

-edit-

To answer the other question, from what I can read in the code, it seems like you need to take a number 10 to your ground. If you have a separate ground rod for your satellite dish, you need to bond that to your service ground with the number 6 you mentioned.

[Old Sailor]

Originally Posted by rack04

Since I got so many great responses with my first question I decide to throw another one your way.

I'm trying to properly ground my roof mounted antenna. I have come up with the following two options:

1.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the coax grounding block at the point of entry. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground.

2.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the 2" rigid riser. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground. Similar to the picture below except I will be making the connection to the rigid riser above the roof jack.



Option 2 is preferred because I wont have to run the #10 thhn stranded wire along the roof, around the awning, and down the brick wall to connect to the grounding block. Thoughts?

Option 2

fyi - http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground3.htm

[rack04]

Originally Posted by Rabidsquirrel

2008 code requires arc faults on anything not a GFI.

-edit-

To answer the other question, from what I can read in the code, it seems like you need to take a number 10 to your ground. If you have a separate ground rod for your satellite dish, you need to bond that to your service ground with the number 6 you mentioned.

Are there any NEC guidelines on burying the #6 ground wire, i.e. depth of cover, distance from drip line, type of wire, etc.?

[Rabidsquirrel]

810.21 (B) says that insulation is not required. You'll need to use copper, because aluminum will rot away in the ground, and you'll want to use copper for at least 18 inches above ground.

Depth, depending what will be traveling on top of it I'd go 18 inches. Drip line really doesn't matter, damp earth conducts better anyway.

Just remember, NEC says that the 8 feet of ground rod has to be underground *and* your connections have to be underground too.

*edit again*

Your ground rods should be at least 6 feet apart to avoid ground loops.