Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.

[neoflex]

I can understand why they would do this but my problem is that the manufacturers are more likely to pull an account due to the prices being to low but more often than not they will turn a blind eye to a vendor who is jacking the prices of their smokes. Perfect example is how many vendors get away with jacking the prices of Opus and Anejos but Fuente supposedly has a strict rule on this but day after day year after year we see it. Again just my .02.

[dunng]

MB3's!

[Volt]

I know it's a beat to death subject, but I can't say I find a ton of value as some do in a B&M. The 3 closest "cigar" stores are just that. Some accessories, moderate to over priced sticks, and none of the amenities that others seem to enjoy. In fairness, one does have a small coffee bar, but that has no appeal to me.

I do think that a person is as only good as their word and as such needs to stick by what they say they will do. Old fashioned maybe, but that's me. So Oliva pulling the contract, I guess good on them if they can stand teh loss of revenue. I tend to agree with Silound, business better be damn good to make up for it.

I personally shop where I get best bang for the buck. Might be at a B&M, Internet, a trade on CA, etc. Cigars are a hobby and as such cannot affect the household living, so it gets done with sharp buying as my other hobbies do. A B&M does not provide me any other benefit over any other source except the other sources typically have less attitude.

I have heard the argument about protecting the "brand" name with high prices and as of today still do not understand how pricing affects the brand name. Maybe one of you economics type can help a BOTL out adn explain it. I do not and have never found where just because an item was high priced it therefore had quality. Some items do cost more due to high quality, but they do not have to go hand in hand. I have a very small Mexican restaurant by my house, all the food is "home made", none of the frozen beans, etc. Amazing stuff. A great dinner for $6 - $7 is common. Beats the hell out of the chain store with the name and canned/frozen food at 30% more a plate.

Kind of rambled here a bit (need more coffee), but the bottom line for me is I don't get pricing and prolly never will regardless as to where it is sold from.

[TripleF]

from Yazzie:

Really, If I can get my V's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the B&M's

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.

My thoughts exactly.

[Kreth]

Originally Posted by Volt

I know it's a beat to death subject, but I can't say I find a ton of value as some do in a B&M. The 3 closest "cigar" stores are just that. Some accessories, moderate to over priced sticks, and none of the amenities that others seem to enjoy.

My local B&M is pretty much the same. Limited selection, high prices (I think an RP Vintage 90 was $10), and nothing in terms of accessories aside from a $2 cutter. I've heard that the owner keeps the place as a tax write-off.

Originally Posted by Yazzie

Really, If I can get my V's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the B&M's

You should be concerned. There is a reason that these contracts exist and the cigar makers make cigars that are not to be sold on the internet. And its not that they feel sorry for the poor local B&M guy. Its financial. They need the locals to stay in business its a huge part of their revenue. I understand you personally probably have no local to go to or there is a bunch of a-hole snobs at your local. But prices would skyrocket or many makers would just fold without the locals.

[BengalMan]

While I don't know the first thing about this situation and will not comment on it, but I will shed some light on the situation in general, coming from someone that's in the industry.

Protecting the price of our product is done for various reasons. The one that has already been mentioned is, deeply discounting a cigar line, or any other line at that, does de-value the brand. Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

Cigar shops are a culture in themselves. A majority of the brands that have "brand name recognition" were built in B&M's. They have been, and will continue to be the grassroots, lifeblood of this industry. They provide a place where customers can socialize, relax, and get away from the everyday troubles of life, and have a cigar with someone that they may have never met before, but share a close bond with. That bond is the cigar. When you have an online shop that deeply discounts products BELOW MSRP, if takes away from the places that put most of these brands where they are today. Some brands may not care about that, but I know we do.

The problem that lies in this whole situation is the state taxes and OTP. None of it is regulated, and it keeps going up. In Michigan for instance, it's 32% and they're talking about doubling it to a whopping 64%. Now, a Michigan B&M can do nothing but pay the state that tax and in turn roll it over to the consumer. What the people passing this legislation don't understand, is that if they make it too high, people will do just what some of you have said, stop buying at the B&M's and buy online, because when you ship out of state, you don't have to pay the state (that is already changing though, but that's a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC). Thus resulting in hurting the local economies even more because more local business will close and more people will be out of work.

In the end, please support your local B&M's. Even if it's only a stick a week, or a few here and there. You'd be supprised how far those few additional sticks can go for them. It may be the difference in being able to pay their electric bill without going into the hole that month. The B&M's helped build the indusry that we all love so much, the least we could do is show our support to them in these times of the economic downturn. These are all people that help keep your local economy alive. So next time your about to order that 5er online, think, "maybe this time, I'll go to my local B&M, pick up 3-5 cigars, smoke one and have a chat with the customers and owner about the hobby I love so much."

Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work.

[elderboy02]

Nice post Ian

[Volt]

Originally Posted by BengalMan

......Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work.

I was hoping you would chime in as you have the inside look. With all you said, some I agree with, some I'm not sold on just yet.... I would ask/comment that maybe in days of olde when all there was were the B&M's, I can see where they could have held a higher level of importance with availability, knowledge, etc.

In my case of 2 years of smoking cigars and what's around me.

a) Small walk in humi (say triple walk in closet size), the guy there barely speaks English, and is mostly a cigarette shop.

b) Nice size selection, nice discounts on singles, no real knowledge of cigars by the workers. Some accessories.

c) Small walk in humi, coffee bar, some polite help, some not so polite.

d) Large selection, small smoking lounge, friendly, good looking college help (but not knowledgeable on cigars), or crabby help I will not deal with.

Glad you brought up Bose, I was going to add it to my original post but wasn't aware if many knew their pricing. I can hear the diff in a Bose Acustimass system and a low end Pioneer. I have no issues paying for better quality items as I will pay more for a tastier smoke than a yard gar.

I can't rationalize though paying more for a cigar selling locally at $9.25 a Monte White Rothschild or $4.75 ea on a cbid auction. The taxes here just aren't that high to explain that much increase. Exact same cigar, 1/2 the price. Quality doesn't change and there is nor real value gained by supporting a brick and mortar.

Interesting topic.
I agree there are those who are name oriented (my ex brother in law is one), all they care is the name others will see on said product. I on the other hand only require X value for X $$$ paid.

[themoneycollector]

Good post.

After 2 warnings, this should get them to listen.

[Volusianator]

Originally Posted by yazzie

really, if i can get my v's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the b&m's

wow

Now, just for discussion sake....I would like to add a few "thoughts"

How would one presume the industry will be affected by:

1) Online forums such as this....where much of the "cigar socialization" is occuring

2) Smoking by-laws that prohibit the use of tobacco products in public places (including B&Ms)

3) Increasing taxation on physical B&M stock

4) the Economic Downturn and how it affects sales of luxery items

5) The frequent witness of poor conditions in B&Ms (now this is largely speculation....the last 3 B&Ms I was at [from a total of 5] had a majority of the product affected by mold.

I love the concept of market protectionism....I think everyone's livelihood should be protected. But, at some point, the "turning tide" should probably be addressed. Maybe the B&M will have to re-invent itself if it wants to survive. At some point, customers shouldn't be expected to bouy up a failing market paradigm in order to artificially resuscitate it....when a superior model, more in keeping with the new world reality, exists.

Just my 2 cents

(This post would work equally well in the current B&M vs Internet thread as well)

Cyanide

[TripleF]

Originally Posted by BengalMan

While I don't know the first thing about this situation and will not comment on it, but I will shed some light on the situation in general, coming from someone that's in the industry.

Protecting the price of our product is done for various reasons. The one that has already been mentioned is, deeply discounting a cigar line, or any other line at that, does de-value the brand. Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

Cigar shops are a culture in themselves. A majority of the brands that have "brand name recognition" were built in B&M's. They have been, and will continue to be the grassroots, lifeblood of this industry. They provide a place where customers can socialize, relax, and get away from the everyday troubles of life, and have a cigar with someone that they may have never met before, but share a close bond with. That bond is the cigar. When you have an online shop that deeply discounts products BELOW MSRP, if takes away from the places that put most of these brands where they are today. Some brands may not care about that, but I know we do.

The problem that lies in this whole situation is the state taxes and OTP. None of it is regulated, and it keeps going up. In Michigan for instance, it's 32% and they're talking about doubling it to a whopping 64%. Now, a Michigan B&M can do nothing but pay the state that tax and in turn roll it over to the consumer. What the people passing this legislation don't understand, is that if they make it too high, people will do just what some of you have said, stop buying at the B&M's and buy online, because when you ship out of state, you don't have to pay the state (that is already changing though, but that's a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC). Thus resulting in hurting the local economies even more because more local business will close and more people will be out of work.

In the end, please support your local B&M's. Even if it's only a stick a week, or a few here and there. You'd be supprised how far those few additional sticks can go for them. It may be the difference in being able to pay their electric bill without going into the hole that month. The B&M's helped build the indusry that we all love so much, the least we could do is show our support to them in these times of the economic downturn. These are all people that help keep your local economy alive. So next time your about to order that 5er online, think, "maybe this time, I'll go to my local B&M, pick up 3-5 cigars, smoke one and have a chat with the customers and owner about the hobby I love so much."

Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work.

Here! Here!

[mosesbotbol]

Rolex is a perfect example of protecting a brand by strict pricing; it's made them and their dealers a ton of money.

[Volusianator]

Originally Posted by Volt

Quality doesn't change and there is nor real value gained by supporting a brick and mortar.

Remember that the next time you want to go to a lounge with a bunch of buddies, or by yourself to have a smoke and the shop is out of business because nobody saw the "value" in spending more at a B&M. I buy my fair share of cigars online, just like everyone else, but I also buy boxes from my local from time to time to do my part to help keep his doors open. I value his business, I value his leather chairs, I value his smoke eaters, I value the drinks I can get there, I value his service.

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.

And mine as well. Thanks NCRadioMan!

[Pat1075]

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.

Here Here. Thank you.

Originally Posted by BengalMan

Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

I have to argue this. Bose is built upon reputation for high quality. The reduction of the price might marginally affect the impressions of that quality, but the quality itself will stand alone. In your scenario above, you would likely sell out every single piece you brought in quickly, every time, and the brand name would not suffer.

Of course, when applying the same thoughts to cigars, it holds much more merit. The taste of a cigar is very subjective (if you want proof, look at the reviews in the Silound's dog rocket thread on the NC review board). People often say that cigars are better when smoked at Herfs. The impression that a cigar is better due to price, emotional state when smoking, etc. has some serious validity. But I wouldn't say it was the defining aspect of makes a good cigar.

Just my $.02, carry on...

[Yazzie]

Nothing wrong with your arguments for those who frequent a B&M or use their Services. Hell if I felt that way then I would not have made the statement I made.

Different strokes for different folks. I have 2 good B&M's in my area and have bone and bought sticks at both. However I don't hang out there, and the few times I've asked if they would price match on a box for VSG's or Oliva V's they said they couldn't come close....So for me I buy online at much cheaper prices and am happy for it. Now if I was one who hung out at a B&M daily and looked at it as a place to smoke/socialize, etc... then maybe I would feel differently...

When you shop for an airplane flight, or a trip, or a hotel room, do you always buy from one place or one price or do you shop around a bit

[Silound]

Originally Posted by Drat

I have to argue this. Bose is built upon reputation for high quality. The reduction of the price might marginally affect the impressions of that quality, but the quality itself will stand alone. In your scenario above, you would likely sell out every single piece you brought in quickly, every time, and the brand name would not suffer.

Of course, when applying the same thoughts to cigars, it holds much more merit. The taste of a cigar is very subjective (if you want proof, look at the reviews in the Silound's dog rocket thread on the NC review board). People often say that cigars are better when smoked at Herfs. The impression that a cigar is better due to price, emotional state when smoking, etc. has some serious validity. But I wouldn't say it was the defining aspect of makes a good cigar.

Just my $.02, carry on...

Holy crap, I got a cross comment about that thread!


I agree about quality standing on it's own, and I agree that B&M's need support. But not everyone looks at quality. A HUGE number of shoppers (for cigars especially) buy high dollar assuming that it's quality because of the price. If a car costs 100,000 then it has to be a better vehicle than the one that costs 30,000 to them.

On the flip side, quality can command price, simply because there are people out there who will buy quality just for quality, regardless of the price.

Really it's about knowing your market demographic, and in a luxury market, it's all about those two extremes.