The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:

I like my Chards buttery, toasty and smooth but I have had some good crisp, dry ones too. Too much oak seems to get in the way of the flavor of a lot of wines to me. I wish I knew what made a wine taste the way I like it when I find one and then be able to reliably translate that to other wines.
They seem so hit and miss to me. Label, year, region, winemaker, nothing seems to be a total indicator of what you are going to get.
What really pisses me off is when one year a particular wine is great and the next year it is a failure but the winery tries to pass it off for the same price anyway. I won't name names but this tells me something about the winery. I know one winery that will open the bottles and reblend this kind of stuff into a cheap table wine if it doesn't sell.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by ChicagoWhiteSox

Hes been taping all last week and now monday and tuesday this week. He seems like a down to earth guy. Does he smoke cigars?

Doesn't smoke at all. He told me in an email just 2 weeks ago he is done with the TV stuff since he is too busy with speeches and presentations. But its all good if he is back to taping (I think he emailed me on the way back from India).

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by BC-Axeman

I like my Chards buttery, toasty and smooth but I have had some good crisp, dry ones too. Too much oak seems to get in the way of the flavor of a lot of wines to me. I wish I knew what made a wine taste the way I like it when I find one and then be able to reliably translate that to other wines.
They seem so hit and miss to me. Label, year, region, winemaker, nothing seems to be a total indicator of what you are going to get.
What really pisses me off is when one year a particular wine is great and the next year it is a failure but the winery tries to pass it off for the same price anyway. I won't name names but this tells me something about the winery. I know one winery that will open the bottles and reblend this kind of stuff into a cheap table wine if it doesn't sell.

Every vintage is different, as you pointed out. Best wineries out there come as close to prior vintages as it gets, others don't. Champagne and Cognac houses actually depend on this and have highly paid people who assemble the final blends so that they are almost identical from release to release to keep the "house style".

Main reason I keep telling people that cigars are pretty similar and what one smoked from a box made 3 years ago may be different than from a box made this year no matter how you cut it. Consistency year to year is the hallmark of great producers. The process is not that much dissimilar when one dissects it, only one works with grapes and another with tobacco leaves.

Try that Toasted Head, its all over the place in Bay Area. I think you'll like it.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

If you want a real bargain without a point score attached, try a bottle of Toasted Head Chard, beats the ones you posted about, at least in my book. Should be $10-14 per bottle and widely available.

Yuck.

That tastes like the over-oaked cheapo Ca. Chard's... Ch. St. Michelle is better for similar price, as is Simi. I prefer Chablis or Meursault to Ca. Chard's.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

Like I said, I'll take a good Chablis any time. But look at all the recommendations here, most people LOVE oaky chards and I am not here to judge anyone. Rombaur made his money and still does via his Chard, oak and RS in full force, but try selling something else in a CA wine shop to a customer, they won't even try anything else.

There is whole bunch of CA Chards that drink like better Burgs, but almost nothing makes it out of the state, sadly. Our supermarkets sometimes have much better selection of great CA wines than most of the high end shops on the Right Coast. Thank the 3 Tier distribution system for that.

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is another one to consider and it's a Pinot Noir, my personal favorite style of wine!

2007 Monte degli Angeli Pinot Noir

"A dark and brooding nose. On the palate confited blueberries and blackberries, all framed by more than a hint of baking spice. With time an earth note emerges, giving the wine a surprising complexity. Densely flavored--yet surprisingly lifted. A wondrously well-crafted wine that belies its modest site--or not so modest. After all, this is from the Piedmont--amongst the most hallowed grounds in all the Wine World. I'd call this a connoisseur's wine--but at this price point I'm happy that many will enjoy this. A wine that revels in power and complexity."

91 points, Jason Palma
Manager, Fine Wines; Sam's Wines and Spirits

Price: $9.99 per 750ml bottle!

[TheRiddick]

Arghhh....

Read the note again. Dark and brooding nose? In Pinot Noir? Wow, a first for me. Any mention of BLUE in a tasting note for Pinot Noir is a death knell for the wine and anyone looking for Pinot Noir FLAVOR in this wine will be deeply disappointed.

Recently, SF Chronicle had 3 local sommeliers assemble a week's worth of wines, 7 bottles, as their choices for a person on the street. The kicker was that each had only $150 to spend on the entire lot. All 3 came up with a nice list, whites and reds, IIRC even one Rose, but not one of them had a bottle of Pinot on their list (they all love it and drink it). When asked, all replied that anyone looking for decent (not even good) Pinot at $20 won't find one. Pretty true when one considers that last year, for the first time ever, average price per ton of Pinot Noir grapes exceeded even that of Cabernet Sauvignon.

What I am saying, buy the wine if you want WINE, simply a red wine, but in no way fool yourself you're buying PINOT NOIR. A whole bunch of French producers are now investigated for selling non Pinot Noir wines as such. I suspect this is another case, albeit from Italy now.

Piedmont is Sangiovese country, through and through, save for some Cabernet, merlot and maybe Syrah to produce the so called Super Tuscans. Anyone growing fruit there can easily make more than $10 wine simply by stating the region's name on the bottle, why would anyone forgo that and produce Pinot Noir? And make less? This is highly suspect to me and Sam's should know better.

Buy the aforementioned Bogle at that same price, I am sure you'll enjoy it much more. And won't have to guess what's really in that bottle.

[mosesbotbol]

Three reasonable Pinot Picks for under $20, that taste like pinot should are:

St. Michael-Eppan Pinot Nero Riserva

Louis Jadot Bourgone Village

Sipp Mack Pinot Noir

I have a lot of Pinot and I think the cheapest I have was $16 on sale 20% off. I would be suspicious of "dark and brooding" too and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn. WTH does that mean as nose anyway. It's in a bad mood and thinking about doing something really wicked and smells like it?
Still, if you taste it and like it....who cares.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

Its in the eye of the beholder, right? I've yet to find a Burg, at less than $100+ per bottle, that talks to me, let alone one for $20 or less (for any Pinot). A lot of them have great nose, but no palate and a lot of them have no finish, even at higher price points. We could argue endlessly about pros and cons, but to my palate there is a clear difference. And lately, it is getting harder and harder to tell Burgs from well made CA Pinots, at least on the high end of both. Even the great Parker (sarcasm here), in a double blind tasting he set up a few years ago here in Napa, could not tell them apart, same goes for about 100 wine geeks and industry pros who paid to attend. The lines are way more blurred these days than anyone wants to admit to (and the point of that tasting).

There used to be some decent NZ Pinots that came close to $20, but even they are over that number lately and are mostly in the $40 range. There are just a few CA made Pinots that are in the $20 range that are worth drinking , but they all are available winery direct only and disappear the day after release (doh!).

Like I said, buy it for the WINE, not for PINOT NOIR you may be seeking, its not there.

A couple of years ago, we had a dinner at our house and a couple of guests, who thought they are "plugged into" great Pinot Noir by their local Whole Foods wine guy, proudly plopped a bottle they brought with them on the counter (Sidawys hooplawas still in full swing). Yep, Burg, mid $20s. Highly touted by the sales clerk. I didn't say anything, simply pulled out some stems, we poured and simply carried on a conversation, cheese and crackers to help out, awaiting the rest of the crowd to arrive. I then popped a bottle of CA Pinot open and poured, their eyes popped the second they stuck their noses in the glass, then they tasted and you could see their minds were now racing at full speed. Yep, a CA made Pinot Noir, in the $40+ range. Yes, I know, more than the wine they brought, but the difference was worth every penny according to them. But after that eye opening experience, they never bought a bottle of Burgundy again.

My tasting group was doing a Pinot tasting recently, someone snuck in a bottle of Burg, blind and all. Yep, no one took it for anything but a (badly made) CA Pinot, way overripe fruit, flabby and way too much oak for the fruit, all combined to muddle the nose and flavor. OK, bad year in Burgundy (2003) and all, but still, a good producer should make something decent anyway, at least enjoyable, which this was not. A $50 bottle. And this is not a lone example.

I am not saying that anyone in this thread should start buying expensive wines, simply that I find it difficult (and actually impossible) to recommend any Pinot Noir in the price range discussed, whether imported or domestic if someone is looking for PINOT NOIR and not just a bottle label that says it is. And when I see tasting notes and scores such as the one from Sam's, it makes me cringe, they simply scream "You've been warned, buy something else!"

I've had some really good German Pinot, in the $40+ range. NZ as well. But I have yet to have a Pinot made in Italy or Oz that convinced me to buy it, price independent. Burgs? I am still split on them and what I like are all in the $150-200+ range, way out of my league.

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

I am not saying that anyone in this thread should start buying expensive wines, simply that I find it difficult (and actually impossible) to recommend any Pinot Noir in the price range discussed, whether imported or domestic if someone is looking for PINOT NOIR and not just a bottle label that says it is.

I'm not sure anyone asked you to recommend a Pinot Noir for under $20. If they did, and I missed it, I apologize. From what I can tell, this thread is meant to discuss what folks enjoy for under $20.

If it is difficult or impossible for you to make a suggestion, it is o.k. not to post in this thread. Or better yet, start another thread to discuss higher end wines. You obviously have some knowledge and experience of wine that most here don't.

Know any good wines under $20, Peter?
I have to admit that the Lost Angel Petit Syrah I mentioned before didn't taste like a Petit Syrah. It was a very good wine for $12 though. More "bright and cheerful".

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by BC-Axeman

Know any good wines under $20, Peter?
I have to admit that the Lost Angel Petit Syrah I mentioned before didn't taste like a Petit Syrah. It was a very good wine for $12 though. More "bright and cheerful".

Quite a few, actually.

I don't think anyone here is expecting stellar wines for under $20. Just something that can be appreciated and enjoyed.

One of my personal favorites (more to come later) is a Pepperwood Grove Old Vine Zinfandel for around $8 at BevMo. Does it compare to the higher end California Zins in the $20-$40 price range? Of course not. But a delicious wine nonetheless.

[croatan]

Originally Posted by pnoon

One of my personal favorites (more to come later) is a Pepperwood Grove Old Vine Zinfandel for around $8 at BevMo.

Their pinot rocks for $7, too. It's no Kosta Browne, but for a $7 bottle of wine, it's outstanding.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by pnoon

One of my personal favorites (more to come later) is a Pepperwood Grove Old Vine Zinfandel for around $8 at BevMo. Does it compare to the higher end California Zins in the $20-$40 price range? Of course not. But a delicious wine nonetheless.

And you'd be right, of course. Nice wine to go with a fresh off the grill burger.

Just curious what attracted you to try the wine in the first place? The label that says "Old Vine"? Its not, I can assure you of that, its just a marketing ploy since there is no legal definition of the term and no ATF rules that say when one could use it. Or price? Bogle makes a much better wine for not much more (without confusing consumers with marketing tricks). Same for their Pinot Noir wine, was it the price that attacted you? Because I know of no wine geek who would reach for a bottle of PG Pinot if they want to drink PINOT.

Try a bottle of DeLoach California Pinot Noir, should be roughly $10-12 in your parts, let me know what you think. IMO, a much better wine than Pepperwood Grove (and I am not knocking PG, its OK for what it is).

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by croatan

Their pinot rocks for $7, too. It's no Kosta Browne, but for a $7 bottle of wine, it's outstanding.

Wow, a Kosta Browne reference. How did you get your hands on one?

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

And you'd be right, of course. Nice wine to go with a fresh off the grill burger.

Just curious what attracted you to try the wine in the first place? The label that says "Old Vine"? Its not, I can assure you of that, its just a marketing ploy since there is no legal definition of the term and no ATF rules that say when one could use it. Or price? Bogle makes a much better wine for not much more (without confusing consumers with marketing tricks). Same for their Pinot Noir wine, was it the price that attacted you? Because I know of no wine geek who would reach for a bottle of PG Pinot if they want to drink PINOT.

Try a bottle of DeLoach California Pinot Noir, should be roughly $10-12 in your parts, let me know what you think. IMO, a much better wine than Pepperwood Grove (and I am not knocking PG, its OK for what it is).

I first bought the PG because of the price point. I continue to buy it for what it is. Like cigars, sometimes I want a wine that I don't have to think and analyze to enjoy. I also make no claims as to the veracity of the labeling. What I do know is that I enjoy what I am drinking. And for what the participants and lurkers in this thread are looking for, I think it is a decent choice. I will certainly try the Bogle.

I have not seen nor tried the PG Pinot. I believe James (croatan) posted earlier about it. I am not a big fan of Pinots in general but am always willing to try (almost) any wine. I am familiar with DeLoach and will give their Pinot Noir a try.

My red wine preferences are primarily California Cabs, Australian Shiraz, Italian Chianti, and Spanish Tempranillo. Lately, Tempranillos is what I've been after.

I had never tasted a Tempranillo until I was in Paso Robles a couple of weekends ago and two of the places I tasted at were offering some up. I ended up with bottles from both of them. Can't remember where now.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by BC-Axeman

I had never tasted a Tempranillo until I was in Paso Robles a couple of weekends ago and two of the places I tasted at were offering some up. I ended up with bottles from both of them. Can't remember where now.

Go to Spanish Table in Berkeley, Kevin has a great selection of Spanish wines (and Portos as well), if you like Paso Robles versons, then I am sure you'll love the real deal, so to speak.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

Three reasonable Pinot Picks for under $20, that taste like pinot should are:

St. Michael-Eppan Pinot Nero Riserva

Louis Jadot Bourgone Village

Sipp Mack Pinot Noir

I agree, these are very nice, as are many offerings from Santa Barbara Vineyards, Sterling Vineyards, Fess Parker Vineyards, Bogle Vineyards and Santa Rita Vineyards, which all offer at least one or two Pinot Noir bottlings every year that usually sell for $20 or less.