The Official Asylum Reef Tank Thread

[4WheelVFR]

Beautiful! Love the Clarion Angel. I also was able to get fish at wholesale, and it's amazing at how "cheap" you can get fish. $100 fish were $20 and $1000 fish were a couple hundred bucks or so.

[shilala]

In my 17 years of saltwater keeping, I've killed over 5K worth of fish. Easily. Sometimes a couple thousand bucks at once. It is a painful, painful hobby.
It sure is nice when everything is going right, I'll admit that. I figured out what my most recent problem is. Now I just have to get the gumption up to fix it and wait the year it'll take till things straighten out.
I tried to give my fish tank away the other day but I don't want all the stock dumped in the garbage. So I decided I have a responsibility to the critters and I'll struggle forth.
I imagine my "want to" will return. I'd really just rather go back to keeping fresh water local fish like crappies and bass and stuff. That's FUN.

[4WheelVFR]

Originally Posted by shilala

I imagine my "want to" will return. I'd really just rather go back to keeping fresh water local fish like crappies and bass and stuff. That's FUN.

I love keeping natives as well. Definitely a cool list of fish we have to choose from, but you just can't replace reef keeping. Hell, I could be entertained by uncured live rock alone for a good month.....and that's a good thing, because that's how long it'll take to cure lol. Salt tanks are just awesome.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by shilala

In my 17 years of saltwater keeping, I've killed over 5K worth of fish. Easily. Sometimes a couple thousand bucks at once. It is a painful, painful hobby.
It sure is nice when everything is going right, I'll admit that. I figured out what my most recent problem is. Now I just have to get the gumption up to fix it and wait the year it'll take till things straighten out.
I tried to give my fish tank away the other day but I don't want all the stock dumped in the garbage. So I decided I have a responsibility to the critters and I'll struggle forth.
I imagine my "want to" will return. I'd really just rather go back to keeping fresh water local fish like crappies and bass and stuff. That's FUN.

Scott,
After many years in the hobby and as a business, there a few simple secrets to not killing fish and having them live as long as 15 years, as my Emperor Angel.
1 - before buying expensive fish, buy all your expensive equipment, like an EETS skimmer and so on.
2 - and more important than 1, never, ever, ever add additional fish to your tank once populated. If you must, as hard to keep number 1, never, ever add fish to your tank that have not been quarantined for at least a few weeks. I always fresh water dipped them first for five minutes and then in copper tank for two to three weeks. Easiest way to kill established fish is to add new fish with parasites.
3 - see first two

For reefs, put in all your rocks and corals and run tank that way without fish for a couple of months, so that any parasites that may have come with th rocks die without a host. Then refer to 1, 2 and 3.

That worked well for my customers and me.

[Blueface]

Hopefully obvious by my prior post but thought I would add that 99% of fish are not killed by the hobbyist, they are killed by parasites and the bacterial infections they cause in a confined environment, where the parasites can readily reproduce.

Most saltwater fish are very tolerant to immediate introduction into new water with no acclamation. I did this successfully all the time.
Most are tolerant to fluctuating salinity. I kept some in .12 for months, as better for disease recovery since their body doesn't have to filter as much salt that penetrates due to weakened immunity and weakened slime coat, which is their primary salt filter/shield. Most don't know that salt water fish filter the salt to survive and as such, they are completely tolerant to a five minute or more fresh water dip which kills parasites.
They can even handle fluctuations in temperature up to as much as 86-87 degrees or higher if air pumps added.

They just can't handle a wave of zombies attacking them with nowhere to run or hide or new fish with zombies already attached waiting to pop out of their shells and attack as they all stress and immunity weakens.

[OLS]

Originally Posted by shilala

I'd really just rather go back to keeping fresh water local fish like crappies and bass and stuff. That's FUN.

I know I have told this story in the Asylum, but when I was in college, I had a 29 gallon tank in my dorm room.
In it was just a plain old bluegill I had caught one day, kinda small. But it had grown to be quite a pet. I had
masking tape stretched across the top in a web to discourage leaps of faith on it's part. The reason I did that
was that down the center of the 4 man dorm room, a sweet, LARGE corner unit, there was a long, continuous
desk and above it a equally long bank of fluorescent lights, so I figured, "Why waste money on a lighted cover?"
One day I had a chunk of tubifex worms torn off the block and ready to feed and I got a knock on the door.
I put the chunk on a strip of that tape, and turned to answer the door. I opened the door and heard a LOUD splash.
I whipped around and saw the fish still in the tank, and worms floating out of it's gills. I thought WTF, and the
dude who came in the room said he jumped up out of the water. It hit me instantly what he had done, so I put
another piece of food on the tape and didn't have to wait but about 5 seconds and he jumped up and hit the tape
with his nose and the chunk of worms fell in the water and he scarfed it up. I used that as a trick from then on,
and people got a real kick out of it, especially stoned people, of which there were many over the ensuing months
in that dorm room. When I transferred to another school, I let him go back in Bayou Lafourche.

[shilala]

Oh, no, Carlos. You misunderstood. I've got my husbandry down.
I like to kill them in new and fascinating ways. One time I went to Florida in February, my thermostat battery went dead in the house, and the furnace shut off. The tank froze and blew up.
Another time I came home and all the water that was inside the tank was now OUTSIDE the tank thanks to a ruptured seam.
I can go on and on, but I'd rather not cry.

Yeah, Bradley. Blugills are cool and they're very smart. So are lots of other native fish. Trout and Northern Pike are not.
The most beautiful fish I have ever kept in a tank, bar none, were a pair of crappies. One Black and one white, they were a gorgeous and stark comparison against one another. On top of that, every single scale on the fish sparkled with irridescense, the sun and lights played off them and just made my mouth hang open in awe. Indescribably beautiful.
Plus they always struck their prey swimming downward. I'd drop in goldfish and they'd flash way up, then strike the goldfish coming down, all in a half a heartbeat with an explosion of goldfish scales twinkling at the end of the show.
They were as badass as badass gets.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by shilala

Oh, no, Carlos. You misunderstood. I've got my husbandry down.
I like to kill them in new and fascinating ways. One time I went to Florida in February, my thermostat battery went dead in the house, and the furnace shut off. The tank froze and blew up.
Another time I came home and all the water that was inside the tank was now OUTSIDE the tank thanks to a ruptured seam.
I can go on and on, but I'd rather not cry.

Ahhhhh, the 1%.

[shilala]

I have 1% stories that'll fill up a whole 100%, I think.
My whole reef keeping adventure has been a continuous nightmare. If not for the intense love of this game, I'd have dragged all my stuff to the curb long ago.
Our relationship has been very taxed the last couple years, and I'm seeking a divorce. I don't think counseling is even gonna help.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by shilala

I have 1% stories that'll fill up a whole 100%, I think.
My whole reef keeping adventure has been a continuous nightmare. If not for the intense love of this game, I'd have dragged all my stuff to the curb long ago.
Our relationship has been very taxed the last couple years, and I'm seeking a divorce. I don't think counseling is even gonna help.

Once you lose the love, time to get out.
I could not take mine anymore with my bad back and all.
Lucky that I was able to sell it for a good amount and sell the fish separately for near retail.

[shilala]

I'm hoping to take a great big bath on the whole deal, just like always, Carlos. It wouldn't seem right any other way. That's why I'd like to just drag everything to the curb, salute the pile, and call it a day. Cut to the chase, ya know?

[chaase321]

Drag it to the curb! WOAH!

Just let me know the day, and I'll be waiting at the curb!

Hang in there bud.

[ColdCuts]

Whoa.*

I've been eyeballing aquariums for awhile now. From where I sit, on the outside looking in, it looks soothing. I've long-thought fishkeeping would be a good hobby for me, especially with my high blood pressure. Might calm me down a little. So I recently began doing research online, trying to decide what kind of setup would be best for my family, our budget, our would-be aquarium population, and the real-world ecosystem.

Folks say start with a freshwater setup because it's easier and cheaper. Add to that the majority of freshwater fish are captive-bred, i.e. little or no negative impact on the environment, and I was preparing to go with fresh. I even began making a shortlist of how I'd like to stock a 55 or 65-gallon tank and was checking my selections against a compatibility chart.

Then someone, online somewhere, said that saltwater, specifically Fish Only With Live Rock, is only marginally -- if at all -- more challenging than a planted freshwater tank. Hmmm. Visually, I prefer what saltwater has to offer. So then I began thinking that I could go with a FOWLR setup, and purchase only captive-bred and aquacultured stuff from reputable vendors. This way, perhaps, I could successfully and responsibly manage a marine tank, even though I'm a total fishkeeping greenhorn. I was excited!

Then I found this thread. I read the first twelve pages. They read like Greek, complete with photos of special plumbing that I couldn't even begin to understand. Then I skipped to these last two pages and that was enough to make me want to scrap my precious plans and consider, instead, an aquarium-themed screensaver for my laptop. Sounds like, in the saltwater aquarium hobby, all that stands between lovely blood-pressure-dropping tranquility, and ugly heart-attack-inducing disaster, is the inevitable power failure. Or, it could be something else mysterious: introduce a new fish, everybody dies, thousands of dollars lost.

Perhaps fishkeeping is not the peaceful, stress-free hobby I was hoping it would be. Should I just forget tropical fish and stick with cigars? Again, for me, the whole impetus was the meditative calm I thought fishtanks brought. Is that just a naive fantasy?

Or, is it simply that I've got no business sticking my aquarium-noob nose in The Official Asylum Reef Tank Thread? Maybe it's just that this stuff is waaay outta my league. Perhaps I just need some entry-level, practical guidance from the experts here in the Asylum. Is freshwater easier, and therefore, more relaxing? Do marine tanks often suffer crashes costing thousands? Is my electric bill sure to go through the roof? Would I need to hire a plumber to have a great saltwater setup, or buy a generator, or run the risk of divorce? If you've got insights, please gimme a holler. TIA

*My apologies if this comes off as a thread jack.

[Blueface]

Just my two cents, but to answer many of your questions in the last paragraph, yes.

In South Florida as in my case, crashes can happen with power failures. That is why I had a dedicated generator for the tank.
Like any living creature, they can and will die.
It is stress free when all is running well.
Torturous when not.
My electric bill went down $150 a month for my 225 gallon tank when I sold it.
That said, the nearly 20 years I was in the hobby were fun.
If not for my back, would likely still have my tank.

[Blueface]

My son and his wife at a recent marine show.
His website, still work in progress.
Www.cncaquariums.com

[4WheelVFR]

Dave, aquariums can be very relaxing when they're done right. Doing your research beforehand can help prevent most problems you can run into with fishkeeping, but there is still maintenance and care involved that some wouldn't call relaxing. Saltwater setups can be very simple, but being new, I would start with a moderate sized freshwater community tank and go from there. 40-75 gallons, peacefull, easy to keep fish, and basic equipment are all you need for a relaxing set up. There are a handul of very good aquarium forums out there. Fishgeeks and monsterfishkeepers are two that I can recommend offhand, and of course any questions you ask here can probably be handled as well.

[OLS]

I think given the discussion so far I should remind any casual readers to keep in mind one major thing.
FOR DECADES, I could never BE anywhere but here for more than about three-four days. If I went out of
town for Christmas, I had to be quick about it. You CAN BUY 'automation' but you can't force it to work
the way it is supposed to by sheer will. There remains a very expensive element of LUCK that goes into it,
and that is important to stress. You have to fill up your tanks and sumps and hope evaporation is
slow. Even then, the drastic evaporation levels can affect animal health if they go too far. Some people trust
others to enter their homes and handle it for them, but that is also a crap shoot and open only to those who
can really trust these surrogates. it is a great hobby with a ton of rewards, but it is not for everyone.
if you are gone a lot, fresh might better, and that is also a bit of a ball and chain.

[4WheelVFR]

I'll second Brad's opinion. If you are away from home a lot, it may not be the right hobby for you. I'm lucky to have a friend that is very knowledgable when it comes to fishkeeping, so when I'm away I can count on everything being taken care of. Being away for more than a week does require some planning when it comes to tanks, both fresh and salt. We're not trying to scare you away from the hobby, as it is pretty easy going as hobbies go. Knowing what to expect and what can happen is very helpful though.

[ColdCuts]

Thank you, fellas. I appreciate all of the honest feedback. I don't think anyone is trying to scare me away. I think everyone is just trying to give it to me straight, which I appreciate.

Well, I just downloaded a trial version of a nifty aquarium screensaver called Dream Aquarium. It's freshwater, but it's more realistic than the saltwater ones I found. If it works like it should, I'll download the full version, and that'll have to be it, for the time being anyway.

I haven't given up on the aquarium idea, but it's a lot to consider. We're not away from home much at all, but the wife is concerned that if we get a tank we won't be able to vacation as we otherwise might. It's a realistic concern, I suppose. I mean, we don't have any week-long vacations penciled in on the calendar, but I don't want to be shortsighted. We probably will want to go somewhere someday. We currently have a cat. It's easy enough to have someone come in, water and feed the cat, scoop the litter box, done. I don't know anyone in the fishkeeping hobby, so going away for more than a couple days would be a problem, as Brad and Ray have pointed out. I gotta say though, I have a tough time believing that aquarium people never take a vacation. Really? Never?

For me, I'm mainly concerned about two things. First thing is, we're currently renting an apartment. So we'd have to move the tank in the not-so-distant future. Second thing is, my biggest concern, would be how to safeguard my tank against power outages. Last October I lost just about everything I own to Hurricane Sandy (I saved the cigars). I was without power for weeks. It could happen again. I don't know how I'd power my aquarium during an extended power outage. I'd need a dedicated generator, like Blueface. I'll be honest, I don't know the first thing about that kind of stuff. Is that something you can even have in an apartment in Brooklyn? I don't even know.

Add to these concerns, that my wife doesn't really care one way or the other about aquarium fish, so while she's not opposed, there's no real interest on her part. Which means, should I choose to do it, it'll be my project and my project only. And she won't want to be bothered or inconvenienced by it.

What do you guys say now?

OK, I gotta run. This might make you fellas laugh, but I'm actually on my way out the door to visit ... a couple of highly regarded aquarium supply shops in Manhattan. I know. I know. I just want to poke around. Maybe ask some questions. I get an idea in my head, I get obsessed sometimes. Takes awhile for me to let go.

[Blueface]

Generator is a nice luxury and tough to figure out how to run out of an apartment given fumes it exudes.
There are other ways to skin a cat.
Main thing that crashes your tank when no power is lack of oxygen.
You can fix that with $10 pumps that sense when power fails and turn on automatically.
I kept my tank alive with $15K worth of fish for 10 days by simply using air and doing minor regular water changes.
I also manually fed the bacteria in the filter by running used tank water through it that had air and waste to be consumed by the beneficial bacteria.

Moving is trickier but can be done and is done all the time.
Leave it for last. Lots of buckets with lids with the same air pumps dedicated to each bucket. They will do just fine. I have moved many a tank in my life in the acquarium maintenance business.

All that said, that screensaver idea will be easier to feed, clean, move, etc.